The rapture and the 2nd coming

The below is from a facebook post I made earlier. It's well reasoned, but it was meant for facebook so some of this might be a little "beneath" this learned crowd so to speak. If it's too plain, please forgive me.




Regarding the Second Coming of Christ, there are several mistakes that many people make. They usually come from a statement that Jesus made.

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."-Matthew 24:36

People use this passage to say several things. First, that because Jesus said no one knows the day and hour....that that means you cannot ever know the timing of His return. Second, that because no one knows the day or hour....it must be an imminent event that can happen at any time. Why are both of these ideas flawed?

"The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. 2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. 3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?"-Matthew 16:1-3

In this passage, Jesus clearly mocks the Pharisees for understanding how to know when the weather is changing, but not knowing the signs of the times. He's saying "you know that I am the messiah, but you still deny it even though the signs are already in front of you". Did you ever ask yourself why the Pharisees and Sadducees were going around and asking Jesus and John the Baptist (and probably others) if they were the messiah? Oh, you mean you didn't know that the bible gave a SPECIFIC TIMEFRAME FOR THE FIRST COMING OF CHRIST? Wow. How many people haven't read the book of Daniel, or have failed to understand it? The reason that these religious leaders were asking people who were speaking great things and performing miracles if THEY were the messiah...is because they RIGHTFULLY knew that the time was upon them. Daniel was GIVEN a prophecy from the angel GABRIEL (ever wonder why Gabriel was the one to tell mary? Because he is the angel messenger directly connected the prophecy of His first coming) in which a timeline was given to understand WHEN EXACTLY the messiah should be EXPECTED on the scene. Read this prophecy in Daniel chapter 9.

So these religious leaders have an idea about the when...though they can't pinpoint the who exactly (they are willingly ignorant), because they know when he should be cut off...but not the exact moment when he will appear. They were going through the "guesswork" process because they did NOT understand what was supposed to happen. They thought the messiah would be a great ruler right out of the gate. They looked for the wrong characteristics. They denied the prophetic fulfillments etc.

Knowing this, do you think that God wouldn't give us a similar framework for His second coming? What was the question that the disciples asked Jesus in Matthew 24?

" what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"-Matthew 24:3c

What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world.....hmmmmmmm. That sounds pretty direct. Did Jesus say "you can't know so don't bother"? Nope. He gave them a list of SPECIFIC SIGNS to watch for so they could know, and by they I mean the people who were doing the watching...who were following his voice......when he would come again. What are these signs?

1. False Christs
2. wars
3. rumors of wars
4. nation against nation
5. kingdom against kingdom
6. Famines
7. pestilence
8. earthquakes in divers places
9. you will be hated for the name of Jesus
10. offense and betrayal
11. false prophets
12. love waxes cold
13. the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached(please keep a watch on the order of events listed)
14. abomination of desolation
15. fleeing into the wilderness
16. great tribulation such as not since the beginning of time
17. false christs and false prophets again(why do you think these are mentioned a second time?)

These previous 17+ markers occur from verses 4 to 26. Notice what happens in 27.

"For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

Is this a rapture passage? If you think so, then you must be post-trib. Jesus clearly says this happens AFTER all of these other things.

"For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together."-verse 28

What do you think that means? Please see revelation 19:17-18

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."-Matthew 24:29-31

Remind me again, do angels take part in the rapture? What passage is that based on? Oh....it's based on a passage that is clearly speaking of the 2nd coming. It says AFTER the TRIBULATION. This event that is being spoken of happens AFTER the tribulation. So remind me again how this event can be imminent?

"So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."-Matthew 24:33

What does this all mean? One, that not knowing the day or hour is only a matter of time. Jesus clearly tells us that we CAN KNOW the timeframe and the when. Once we see these signs, the clock starts ticking....it's a matter of waiting for the rest of the signs. Two, that the rapture is clearly not an imminent event that can happen at any moment. Not convinced? What does Paul say?

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"-2 Thessalonians 2:1-5

Paul relates the coming of our Lord and our gathering together unto Him as being a related event. They happen in close proximity. He says not to be worried by what others say because you know that the coming of the Lord cannot happen unless the man of sin is revealed. When is He revealed? At the abomination of desolation which paul mentions in this passage.

Want more?

"51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."-1 Corinthians 15:51-52

Paul clearly talking about the rapture here says that it happens at the last trump. Does that sound familiar?

Matthew 24:31 clearly says that at the sound of a trumpet the 2nd coming happens. Can there be any "last trump" before that? Of course not, the last trump happens then in relation to the 2nd coming. If you still don't get it....you are doing the same things I did for 20+ years. You are ignoring the plane truth of scripture in favor of the teaching of man.

What's the good news?

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."-1 Thessalonians 5:9

Realizing that this passage is talking about wrath as a result of sin, it still has an application. We are not appointed to God's wrath. What's hard is for people to rightly discern what God's wrath is. When does it begin? People wrongfully assume that the beginning of the final seven years is God's wrath. One, because there is a misunderstanding about the length of the tribulation as spoken of by Jesus. Every single passage that gives a time length for the tribulation...CLEARLY indicates that it is 3 1/2 years. So one only needs to now learn when it starts. What did Jesus say?

Matthew 24:15 Jesus says the abomination of desolation happens. In verse 21 Jesus says THEN shall be great tribulation (in case you are wondering the in between verses are all about fleeing). From that point, we can count 3 1/2 years. Then is the 2nd coming. Now you can argue about whether or not this is God's wrath or Satan's wrath or what have you(personally I don't attribute it to God's wrath until the 7 bowl judgments), but either way God has a plan of escape for His people.

"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time *, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."-Revelation 12:14

Notice that the passage does mention the purpose of this hiding in the wilderness...that it is to be hidden from the SERPENT...and not to escape the wrath of God. Either way, the woman is hidden during this time. This is mentioned in several places in the old testament as well.

See Isaiah 63 and Micah 2

God has an escape plan for his people through the GREAT TRIBULATION. He does not promise us escape from ALL tribulation however. He does promise us that He will go through it WITH US.

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."-Matthew 24:21

Good post onlyoneimage.

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."-[url=http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Matthew 24.36]Matthew 24:36[/url]

"People use this passage to say several things. First, that because Jesus said no one knows the day and hour....that that means you cannot ever know the timing of His return. Second, that because no one knows the day or hour....it must be an imminent event that can happen at any time. Why are both of these ideas flawed?"


As I type this its just past 'dinnertime' in Honolulu on Thursday; but in Fiji it IS 'dinnertime' on Friday; further assisting your point in my opinion. Its impossible to know the day & hour regardless, its a global event; it won't even occur on the same day for everyone even though it occurs at the same time. (from a technical standpoint)

Very well said, onlyoneimage. It wasn't at all beneath us either. The scriptures are the scriptures and they say what they say, and you did a great job with your argument.   

i have trouble w/ your 3.5 yrs...

rev6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

this starts the last 7yrs...

rev7:9 After this I beheld, and, see, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

here all raptured saints STAND before the Son from abraham...

eze39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, said the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the hand staves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire SEVEN years:

God says about the start, the day has come and is done...


rev11:3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and three score days, clothed in sackcloth.

these 2 wittness 4 1st 3.5yrs, from gog/magog, then great tribulation, 4 3.5 yrs till the day of Christ, when He comes back w/ His army...

joel2:1 Blow you the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD comes, for it is near at hand;
2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread on the mountains: a great people and a strong; there has not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
3 A fire devours before them; and behind them a flame burns: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yes, and nothing shall escape them.
4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devours the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall on the sword, they shall not be wounded.
9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run on the wall, they shall climb up on the houses; they shall enter in at the windows LIKE A THIEF.
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executes his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

this is amplified here...

2pet3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a THIEF in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

 God's words not mine...

murray,

There is a 7 year timeline, but the bible makes it clear that the length of the tribulation that Jesus spoke of...is only 3 1/2 years. The time when the AC rules and the beast system is implemented, the time after the abomination of desolation....is 3 1/2 years. There will be a 3 1/2 year period before that, fulfilling the first half of the final week. It will be a time of great distress for nations...and the approaching of wormwood....but it will not contain either the wrath of God...or the rule of Satan and AC. Babylon falls for the first time right about the same time the abomination happens. A lot happens in a short window.

if the last 7yrs starts @ the sixth seal, and it says it does, the quiet of the seventh seal has been linked to...

isa18:3 All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign on the mountains; and when he bloweth a trumpet, hear ye.
4 For so the Lord said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider in my dwelling place like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest.

isa 17/ps83 is about damasscus, which is about to happen, and isa 19 is egypt in the judgment

all i'm sayin is the seals that Christ open are birth pangs, the trumpets are Gods judgment starting...

rev8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

this is wrath happening way before the wittnesses are killed marking the 1st 3.5 yrs

*

never mind...

murray,

Where does it say the 6th seal starts the last 7 years? I'm quite confused by that statement.

rev6:17 For the great day of his wrath IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?

IS COME, translation, HAS ARRIVED

The 6th Seal starts the Trumpet's disasters, at that time people would think it is the wrath of God as they hide in the dens and rocks of the mountains (Rev.6:15, 16, 17).  This is not the Great Trib., also the 7 Bowls of God's wrath is not the Great Trib.

The first 4 Trumpets are the natural disasters of Wormwood (Brown dwarf?), they happen during the first half of the last 7 Years, also known as the Beginning of Sorrows.

The Great Trib starts 30 days after the Abomination of Desolation, when the AC stopped the Temple sacrifices and declares himself "God."  The FP orders the worship of the AC's image or face the death penalty (Rev. 13:15). For the next 1260 days a great multitude of people are beheaded for refusing to worship. This is the Great Trib!

At the end of 1260 days... starts the 7th Trumpet.  This is the Great and Terrible 'Day of the Lord'... the fulfillment of the Prophecy of the Feast of Trumpets:
 
1.) The 2 Witnesses, dead for 3.5 days, came back to life and ascended to heaven.
2.) 1st Resurrection and Rapture of the saints.
3.) 7 Thunders.
4.) 7 Bowls/Vials of God's Wrath poured down on people who have the Mark of the Beast.

Murray,

Remember....it's the PEOPLE who are CLAIMING that it is the wrath of God at the 6th seal. It is NOT a declaration from heaven or angels or prophets. It will be just as all of the other FALSE events that happen even now. People say LOOK, HERE IT IS! God says.....MY WRATH STARTS AT THE BOWLS.

i'm sorry its the word of GOD saying wrath is come, here is an idea, if u want to prove a point, do it with scripture only, in context, really, really saves on confusion...no really try it..

Rev. 6:15-17 wrote:

15Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

Rev. 16:1 wrote:

Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth.”

There they are, Murray.

*

Jem, and whomever, y'all know I believe the seals, trumpets, bowls all run somewhat parallel to each other and not linear as most charts portray. I was just giving Murray his requested scriptures with nice colorful hi-lites so that he couldn't possibly miss them. He was being somewhat of a horses behind about it all and playing the snarky game. Hopefully he's taken the gentle hint to lighten up some.

Don't worry, researcher hasn't suddenly gone scripturally wacky on you.

researcher,

Curious.....how can they run parallel? I've heard that before, but the 7 trumpets come out of the 7th seal, do they not? Or am I missing something? Maybe just doing what I used to do with the rapture thing all the time....and read into it without it being there.

i take the word of God personal, i cant lighten up, i should be patient, just trying to get it right...

rev22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

do i want to add or take away, not healthy, maybe i could loose a few...researcher

only 1, who are these guys?

rev79 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

where are they? how did they get there?

onlyoneimage wrote:

Curious.....how can they run parallel?

Take a close look at that 6th seal. Notice all those folks who appeared between seals #6 and #7 holding palm branches? That takes place at the 7th (and last) trumpet. That's the resurrection and rapture that in a post tribulation timeline must happen at or near the end of the great tribulation. Now, in seal #6 we see Messiah Yeshua makes His appearance (wrath of the Lamb) and EVERYBODY sees Him. That is the same event that is happening at the final (seventh) trumpet. Seal #6 and trumpet #7 are happening almost simultaneously.

John "saw" a lot of things happening but his written account isn't in complete chronological order. See the chart (click link for a full sized image) below for a reasonably good guide to what I'm trying to say. It may not be 100% accurate but I believe it gets pretty close. Monte comes closest to mine in his explanation. You might want to listen to his Revelation Series of audios too. You can download the series from my Mediafire cloud. I'll link to the folder for you. Inside are 12 teachings in mp3 format plus a workbook PDF and an image file.

http://lionlamb.net/v3/images/yavoh/2008/TribulationTimeline.pdf
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/02yd3rt9flsx6/

The Seals are started to open since the time it was revealed to the Apostle John, so it's been going on for about 2000 yrs.  As we approach the end time, the 7th and last Seal would be opened... and this Seal contains the 7 Trumpets.  

The 7th and last Trumpet contains the 7 Bowls of God's Wrath.

So all the Trumpets and Bowls are contained in the last Seal!

SILENCE!...i kill u...

Wil, I've never seen a chart quite like that one. I would like to see who is behind that chart view. I don't know about that elongated 7th seal bit. Who is teaching this? Thanks.

OK, that's the standard telescoping linear view.

Here's an image with descriptions:




Notice all the 7th (Seal, Trump, Bowl), all end at the same time with the same events.