PRE-ADAMITE HIGH TECHNOLOGY – OOPARTS

PRE-ADAMITE HIGH TECHNOLOGY – OOPARTS


Posted by: Kim Quarterman 


ANTEDILUVIAN

Could a Pre-Flood world, or Pre-Adamite world have existed, if so is there any evidence of such a time?


Pre-Adamite or Pre-adamism is the belief that a civilization existed before Adam, the first human beingnamed in the Bible.


Perhaps one of the most extraordinary theological concepts in the Bible is the proposition that Godcreated and destroyed an ancient civilization on earth eons before the time of Adam and Eve. Although the Bible says nothing about how long ago all of this took place, it does seem to indicate that a Pre-Adamite society did exist at one time in the distant past.

Quote :

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. ()

Whenever it is stated that God “made” the earth and the heaven, or any part thereof, it is referring to the restoration of the immediate heavens and earth sometime after the Pre-Adamite destruction portrayed in the second verse.
Isaiah gives us additional information:

Quote :

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?  ()

 
This passage indicates that there were nations of (people, pre-humans, angels?) inhabiting earth at the time Lucifer rebelled. The phrase, “which didst weaken the nations,” gives credence to this thought.


Jeremiah gives us additional information:

Quote :

I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. ()

Jeremiah refers to the earth immediately after a Pre-Adamite destruction. This account of the destruction of the Pre-Adamite Earth, where its inhabitants dwelt in cities, must have been to destroy most evidences of the sinfulness of its occupants.


Over the past several decades, there have been a steadily increasing number of archaeological discoveries, which, because of their mysterious and highly controversial nature, have been classified as ‘out-of-place’ artifacts, artifacts we call Ooparts. Objects and artifacts which are found in the wrong place and the wrong time which may give evidence of a Pre-Adamite earth. The reason for this designation is that they are artifacts found in geological strata where they should not be found. There appearances in these layers of geological strata (which are very ancient) give non-traditional science evidence of a preceding period of technical sophistication extending far beyond the inventive capabilities of the ancient peoples among whose remains they were discovered giving rise to great speculation.


As ancient artifacts arise which baffle orthodox science we can systematically look for clues in these anomalies or Ooparts, a pattern, which indicates that ancient civilizations had a highly advanced technology. The [url=http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=29.9761111111,31.1311111111&spn=1.0,1.0&q=29.9761111111,31.1311111111 %28Egyptian]pyramids of Egypt[/url] are among the most enduring and perhaps the most obvious signs of advanced ancient technology. The pyramids show a highly advanced system of science and engineering. Other clues have come from ancient cities discovered off the coasts of Japan, Cuba, Indonesia, and India indicating highly advanced technologies.


The Indian Mahabharata could even give a poetic description of a nuclear bombing, written down nearly two thousand years ago and handed down by word of mouth from ancient times. In it are described the Vimana or flying machines. It describes wars where terrible weapons are used.


“Gurkha, flying in his swift and powerful Vimana, hurled against the three cities of the Vrishnis and Andhakas a single projectile charged with all the power of the universe. An incandescent column of smoke and fire, as brilliant as ten thousand suns, rose in all its splendor. It was the unknown weapon, the iron thunderbolt, a gigantic messenger of death, which reduced to ashes the entire race of the Vrishnis and Andhakas.


The corpses were so burnt they were no longer recognizable. Hair and finger nails fell out, Pottery broke without cause. Foodstuffs were poisoned. To escape, the warriors threw themselves in streams to wash themselves and their equipment”.
An ancient artifact was reported in the Scientific American (June 1951, Vol. 7, p. 298). A report was given concerning a metallic vase that had been dynamited out of solid rock on Meeting Horse Hill in Dorchester, Massachusetts. The report read, “On putting the two parts together it formed a bell-shaped vessel, 4 1/2 inches high, 6 l/2 inches at the base, 2 1/2 inches at the top and about an eighth of an inch in thickness. The body of the vessel resembles zinc in color, or a composition metal in which there is a considerable portion of silver. On the sides there are six figures of a flower, a bouquet, beautifully in laid with pure silver, and around the lower part of the vessel, a vine, or wreath, inlaid also with silver. The chasing, carving and inlaying are exquisitely done by the art of some cunning craftsman. This curious and unknown vessel was blown out of the solid pudding stone, fifteen feet below the surface.”


Another ancient artifact was reported in the scientific journal Nature (London, 1886). It published confirmation that in 1886, an Austrian foundry found a block of coal dating from the Tertiary periodwhich when broken open there was found inside a small metal cube. Tests indicated that the cube was composed of a steel-nickel alloy. The edges of this cube were perfectly straight and sharp; four of its sides were flat, while the two remaining opposite sides were convex. A deep groove had been cut all the way around the cube. It appeared that the cube had been machine made and was part of a larger mechanism.


In the possession of the [url=http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=32.237125,-97.806301&spn=0.01,0.01&q=32.237125,-97.806301 %28Creation Evidence]Creation Evidences Museum[/url] at [url=http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=32.2366666667,-97.7538888889&spn=0.1,0.1&q=32.2366666667,-97.7538888889 %28Glen Rose%2C]Glen Rose, Texas[/url] is another ancient artifact. This artifact consists of a metal hammer, imbedded in Ordovician rock, with a portion of the handle still in place. This was discovered in June of 1936 near London. At the time of the discovery the Ordovician rock encased the entire metal hammer. Battelle Laboratories analyzed the artifact and found that the metal hammer head was 96.6% iron, 0.74% sulfur, and 2.6% chlorine. I am told no metallurgist today can alloy metallic iron with chlorine. Fabrication of this implement required technology which cannot be duplicated today.


See: http://dakereader.proboards.com/index.cgi?


board=sonsofgod&action=display&thread=35  for a discussion from the “Drake Bible” concerning Pre-Adamites.


In 1987, a man found a piece of amber on a beach on the Baltic Sea, in the region of Kalinin, after a spring storm.  The man had gone for a walk on the beach to search for pieces of amber. Amber is the fossilized resin of trees. Sometimes amber contains insects or other inclusions.  The man found inside this piece of amber was a tiny piece of woven fabric. The threads of the woven fabric in the amber had a high-tech look to them. The amber in the Baltic Sea region formed 25-55 million years ago. This reported in Michael Cremo’s book Forbidden Archeologist.


This is proof of  civilization that existed before recorded history. Fabric is a hallmark of civilization.


An Oopart


The Genetic Disk


This disk is in the procession of Professor Gutierrez of Bogota, Columbia. This disk shows men and women, depicted sexually. In addition, around the edges is the progression of a fetus to a child.

This disk from South America is one of the most interesting finds in Ooparts Archaeology. Ooparts are about out of place artifacts. Ooparts cannot be classified in any known system of culture. In addition, usually display a scientific knowledge above that which could have existed at the time of the creation of the artifact.





Oopart the Genetic Disk


This disk is made of black stone and measures about 22 cm in diameter, and weighs 2-kilo grams. It is made of a stone called Luddite. A prehistoric dating has been suggested for the stone, but this disk cannot be classified in any known South American system of cultures.


The symbols on the disk are carvings separated with single vertical stripes. One side shows biological details like male sperm, female egg cells, and genitals, the fertilized egg, and a growing embryo. The male sperm and female egg can only be seen with a microscope! How did the ancients know this?


The other side of the Genetic Disk shows scenes of cell division. Researchers are plainly able to recognize the different phases of human gestation on the disk. Very significant are the distant eyes and the broad nose of the zygote. This is a characteristic of the embryonic structure of the head.





A Forgotten Society


The antediluvian (or Pre-diluvian) period  – meaning “before the deluge”  – is the period referred to in the Bible between the Creation of the Earth and the Deluge (flood) in the Biblical cosmology.


Genesis Chapters 4 through 6 records the history of the Antediluvian world in a highly condensed account. From the genealogical list, the time between Adam and the flood of Noah was almost exactly 1656 years.


Many have asked the wondered, “how large was the Pre-Adamite (antediluvian population)”? Population studies have revealed (mathematically speaking) that the population was approximately nine billion! Large than today’s population!


See Lambert Dolphin for a more detail explanation of how these population totals and timelines are generated.


There were no clouds or rain. Instead, the Earth was watered by mists which rose from the Earth. Possibly, a firmament canopy (water vapor) called the Raqiya (Hebrew) encircled the earth resulting in warm, and stable temperatures throughout the world. It also acted as a radiation filter, filtering out the harmful effects of ultraviolet and cosmic radiation. The vegetation found beneath the Polar Icecaps seems to confirm this thought.


It is not surprising that science cannot find direct evidence of antediluvian civilizations, because the Bible says the whole antediluvian world was destroyed by the Flood. ()


That there is “no new thing” that what man calls progress is more of a recovery to previous levels is confirmed by Solomon writing under inspiration of the Holy Spirit in Scripture.

Quote :

The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun“. ()

http://www.fallenangels-ckquarterman.com/pre-adamite/

If there was a previous lot of humans and God destroyed them how could God say, after he created every 24hgour day...."And it was very good" with all those dead bodies/things/creatures all buried somewhere? That would not have been "very good...."

I have looked for many years for evidence to support a pre-Genesis civilization with no success....While there seems to be subtle evidence in the Bible to support a theory that one might have existed, I just have not found any hard evidence in all of the extra-Biblical manuscripts that I have looked at....Plato is the only writer that I have read that supported the possibility of an Atlantian culture and that was based on records that no longer exist, supposedly.....My personal opinion, and that is all it is, would give credence to the possibility due to what is found in the Bible and quoted in the opening post.....As far as I am concerned, any hard and conclusive evidence that would support this, does not exist, or has been kept hidden....I was asked this question the other day by another researcher/teacher and this was my answer to her....While I have no doubt that the Universe is millions, if not billions of years old, I have almost given up trying to find any manuscripts or records that would support life before Genesis, although Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 indicate that the Genesis creation story is actually a re-creation story by an apparent translation error of the Hebrew word "hayah" which can mean either "was" or "became" and throughout the Bible, the most common usage for the word "hayah" is became.....A curious item to support this is that all the things that God created, grass,herbs and trees were not one of them....they "sprang forth" which indicates that the seed were already there....Does this prove anything? Who knows

I've been giving this subject a lot of thought lately. I'm convinced totally that the earth is far older than 6000 years. There is just to much scientific evidence of this to think otherwise. As for pre-adamite man, well, maybe, but probably not. I have far less of a problem with a pre-adamite civilization populated by angelic beings though. I don't have a problem with a pre-adimite "war in heaven" when the angels fell and the earth and the planets were left desolate with at least one planet (Rahab?) completely destroyed, becoming our asteroid belt. I also don't have any problems with God restoring the earth some 6000 years ago in 6 literal days. So far, as I see it, this view doesn't force scripture.

REMEMBER: all of the above is just MY PERSONAL view based on much study and scads of books I've read over the years.

Now on to J-e-r-e-m-i-a-h 4:23-26  and what I think it might be saying. Read it again, however this time read it with the last days, the end of the great tribulation, and the day of The Lord in mind. I don't see any reason that this can't be about a future event prophecy still to be fulfilled.

Quote :

J-e-r-e-m-i-a-h 4:23-26

I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

Now, read ALL of Jeremiah chapter 4 with this these verses in context.

Jeremiah 4 wrote:

Jeremiah 4

King James Version (KJV)

4 If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the Lord, return unto me: and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of my sight, then shalt thou not remove.

2 And thou shalt swear, The Lord liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory.

3 For thus saith the Lord to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.

4 Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

5 Declare ye in Judah, and publish in Jerusalem; and say, Blow ye the trumpet in the land: cry, gather together, and say, Assemble yourselves, and let us go into the defenced cities.

6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction.

7 The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant.

8 For this gird you with sackcloth, lament and howl: for the fierce anger of the Lord is not turned back from us.

9 And it shall come to pass at that day, saith the Lord, that the heart of the king shall perish, and the heart of the princes; and the priests shall be astonished, and the prophets shall wonder.

10 Then said I, Ah, Lord God! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul.

11 At that time shall it be said to this people and to Jerusalem, A dry wind of the high places in the wilderness toward the daughter of my people, not to fan, nor to cleanse,

12 Even a full wind from those places shall come unto me: now also will I give sentence against them.

13 Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled.

14 O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?

15 For a voice declareth from Dan, and publisheth affliction from mount Ephraim.

16 Make ye mention to the nations; behold, publish against Jerusalem, that watchers come from a far country, and give out their voice against the cities of Judah.

17 As keepers of a field, are they against her round about; because she hath been rebellious against me, saith the Lord.

18 Thy way and thy doings have procured these things unto thee; this is thy wickedness, because it is bitter, because it reacheth unto thine heart.

19 My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.

20 Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment.

21 How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?

22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger.

27 For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.

30 And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life.

31 For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.

For some odd reason the forum erases J-e-r-e-m-i-a-h 4:23-26 when I try to save the posting so that is why the weirdness in the way I wrote it. It was to fool the forum Tzar.

the idea of an angelic inhabitance is about as good as you can theorize concerning any pre-Genesis occupation of the earth.....a supernatural war COULD have caused the desolation and the destruction of a planet(rahab)and  would have certainly affected the gravitational balance of the solar system resulting in the earth being shifted out of its normal rotation and causing a polar shift and mountains  being leveled,ect....ever wonder why the asteroid belt is in a solar orbit just like the planets?....I think that asteroid belt was once a planet that, for whatever reason, was destructed, or exploded, or something along that line....those asteroids exhibit the same gravitation attraction as a planet would.....there was something that happened to cause a polar shift,and something that caused a massive cataclysmic event to take place in a very short amount of time

Do you want proof of a pre-adamite civilization?

How old is the earth folks? If it has been between 6 and 12 thousand years since the creation of adam.....and that is ALL that has ever existed on earth, then there are a couple of questions.

First, how many times has there been a GLOBAL catastrophe? The flood? How about any others? If there hasn't been any others....then what about this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_impact_craters_on_Earth


Many of these craters were created by objects large enough to wipe out known life on earth. The big questions are.....if they hit the planet during "our time"....as in since adam was created, why do they not show up in known historical writings? Events like that would definitely show up right? The other question is, why wouldn't the bible mention anything like this?

I've heard some people try to say that they might have hit earth when the flood happened. Once again, if that is true...why doesn't the bible say anything about it?

Ahhhh....but the bible DOES say something about it.

Psalms 87:4
Psalms 89:10
Isaiah 51:9
Job 9:13(original Hebrew might be necessary for wording purposes)
Job 26:12 (original Hebrew)
Psalm 18:1-50


There are many other passages that lend credence to the idea. I like Psalm 18 though, as it seems to slip back into a description of a time long ago when God destroyed the earth. Jeremiah 4 of course is the great passage describing that there were cities but there WAS NO MAN. Psalm 18 seems to be the description of how God came to be in a state of "hovering over the waters" in Genesis chapter 1.

There is quite honestly more information in the depths of the bible on this subject.....and I would remind people here that David Flynn believe in a pre-adamite civilization.

http://www.mt.net/~watcher/stones.html

I first discovered this possibility when I was about 14 years old and reading a Clarence larkin book. It had never even occurred to me that it was possible....and particularly not that other Christians actually believed it. David Flynn of course wrote about it, and I studied what he wrote...and it furthered my research. Of course many of you know that under my former name "wateredseeds" I wrote about this subject on the old forums. I have no doubt.

Hey, wonder when the last ice age ended? It is said to have ended about 12,000 years ago. While I tend to view science as overestimating things by about 2x, I think it probably ended closer to 6,000 years ago...about the time God started undoing the destruction. Interesting to note, that God was moving above the waters in the first part of Genesis, and that if there was no light getting through to the earth....then the water would be ice.

I'm not someone who looks for science to verify the bible....but rather the other way around. I'll trust my bible over anything science says....but it just so happens that they have a lot in common. There are a lot of things that science didn't know until very recently that the bible actually stated a long time ago.

Do you believe in a literal interpretation? Would it surprise you to know that the "gap theory" is the most literal interpretation of the scripture? It doesn't interchange words to fit the theory....it lets the words remain what they are(in Hebrew) and exact specifics are revealed. For instance, the Hebrew word bara and asah are considered different. People argue about whether they can be used for the same thing....but what purpose exactly would it serve to use 2 different words within the same chapter of the bible to describe the same exact thing.....but talk about different events? It isn't an issue of re-confirming an event. An event occurs that uses asah, another event occurs that uses bara. It isn't talking about the same events. Clearly there is a distinction between them. Even more interesting is that Job declares that the angels were created BEFORE the earth was created. Doesn't this meant that the entirety of the creation story is...GASP, NOT secluded to Genesis but other details exist in the rest of the bible?

It's time to get over it. At the very least.....you must admit the biblical possibility of an old earth. The bible doesn't just "leave room" for it...it GIVES DETAIL. Even if you disagree, that's okay...but PLEASE don't  judge the others who believe in an old earth whether Christian or not. it turns out...they have more than science on their side.

Not judging others for what they decide to believe, and pardon me for mentioning it but I do not "have" to agree with the late David, do I? I "am" allowed to agree to disagree, right?

I find it very interesting that Hebrew scholars like Doug Hamp and Mike Heiser do not believe in the validity of the Gap Theory.  The Gap Theory only exists in English; in Hebrew, it does not exist.  And without the Gap Theory, a pre-Adamic earth theory falls apart.
 
According to Doug Hamp:
 Proponents of the Gap Theory see the days of Genesis 1 as being literal days but with a time gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 (some also suggest a gap between 1:2 and 1:3).  The rationale for seeking a gap, nevertheless, is due to the belief that (geological) evolution is an established fact and that the Bible must be reconciled to it.  Hence, a time gap is envisioned between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 (or 1:2-1:3), which allows for the billions of years supposedly necessary for geological evolution to take place.  http://www.douglashamp.com/part-two-evolution-plus-god/
 Doug Hamp, The First Six Days http://www.douglashamp.com/the-first-six-days/
 
According to Mike Heiser:
http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/2010/09/genesis-12-and-the-gap-theory/
Some have asked for some comments about the validity of the Gap Theory – the idea that Genesis 1:1 speaks of the initial creation, while Genesis 1:2 describes the destruction of that creation by some evil cataclysmic event (the fault of Satan) that happened between Gen. 1:1 and Gen. 1:2  (in the “gap” there). I know of no scholar who holds this view, though it had its defenders a century ago.� Typically this view is put forth in more popular Christian circles, sometimes (but not always) in an attempt to explain the fossil record in the context of a literalist view of Genesis.
Here is a paper (http://www.michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/WaltkeRestitutionTheory.pdf) that deals in fairly simple terms with this view by Hebrew scholar Bruce Waltke. Note that Waltke refers to the Gap Theory as the “Restitution Theory.”
In a nutshell, the theory is overturned by Hebrew grammar — specifically the fact that we have a classic waw-disjunctive beginning Gen. 1:2 (Hebrew conjunction waw prefixed to a noun instead of a verb, which mars any narrative sequence). This is basically why no Hebrew grammarian defends the view. It matters not that one can find ONE (count it) other example of the verb hayah (“to be”) in an identical grammatical construction that could be translated “became” (a key idea in the Gap Theory) precisely because the waw disjunctive that begins 1:2 forbids a linear sequence of events. (And the fact that a search for the identical construction with hayah in Gen. 1:2 where the meaning can be “became” only yields one result should also tell us something about the grammatical merits of the Gap Theory).
Anyway, enjoy!
 
The first of Mike Heiser's four part series on Genesis:
http://thestrongdelusion.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2239&Itemid=9
(I highly recommend listening to the first 30 minutes of the first video at a minimum.  It will make clear the grammar in such a way that you don't have to be a grammar nerd like me to understand.)

I know many people whom I love and respect who believe in an old earth, but I just can't buy it because of the syntax.

I think that all of those fascinating OOPARTS point to the antediluvian world: a world that despite our current level of technology was so awesome and so terrible that we still cannot comprehend it.  And, I think those craters occurred when God struck the earth to open the chasms of the deep to allow the water to pour out.

Anyone who characterizes the gap theory as supporting evolution is IGNORANT of the theory itself. I've NEVER read any serious scholar who agreed with the gap theory, and also was a proponent of evolution. It's the same junk I see from Ken Ham. Ham and others like him judge people for disagreeing with a young earth view....when there is more than enough room within the biblical text to suggest that the earth is in fact old.

Also, it is found and rooted in the HEBREW scriptures...not the English. The words bara and asah are DIFFERENT words...not the same. They are not so easily interchangeable as modern scholars try to profess.

As to whether one can disagree with another...ABSOLUTELY. However, I've too often found that within the "establishment" there isn't room for multiple biblical theories...just as it is with the pre-tribulation rapture viewpoint.....or a post-tribulation rapture viewpoint. There is no healthy dialogue anymore, just judgment and condemnation. Certainly these are not the issues that are our hill to die on....but they are important issues. Look at the grammatical implications in Genesis chapter 1. Anyone who studies it with an open mind can see how much room there is for other viewpoints....and with the other known passages of the bible filling in the blanks.

Is Jeremiah 4 allegorical? There was no man. That seems pretty literal to me.

Can we follow the logical approach here? What was the first genuine creative act? Answer that question, and then you'll you know.....have more questions.

while I suspect the universe has been around for eons, I don't begrudge anyone who thinks otherwise, and consider the subject open for honest debate....the only way reason I am interested in the subject is that I just want to know....I base my beliefs purely on evidence and proof, and I have found none, nada, zero....I can pinpoint circumstantial evidence, but that is just not good enough....I am an "old-earther" but I know that evolution is a fraud and a fantasy, and in situations where theory and speculation is the only criteria required, disagreement is going to happen, and those disagreements should be discussed, both pro and con....now, having said that, here is another point of contention:

okay, light travels at 186,000 miles per second and distances stretching out in the universe is measured I "light years", so one light year would be the distance that light travels in one year, at 186,000 miles per second.....for example, when you see the sun rise in the morning, you are actually seeing the sun as it was 61/2 minutes ago, because that how long it took for that light to reach the earth.....okay, with me so far?.....now, the new technology that is allowing astronomers, can see out in the universe for some absurd, never before distances, with estimates of up to 13 billion light years away,as seen in this article from nasa

   http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/hubble/science/farthest-galaxy.html

if this is even a badly skewed estimate, and it is only say, 100,000 light years away for argument, it would take 100,000 years for that star to be able to be seen on the earth from its creation....do the math

Michael,

evolution is not biblical, and is not theologically probable. An old earth however, is both biblically possible and biblically LIKELY. I find HARD evidence within the context of the bible to suggest so. The real problem is that if you believe in what the bible says....but don't think it allows for or describes an old earth....when did these massive craters appear? You have to fit them into a biblical timeline...and the only biblical evidence about it, suggests pre-adamite cataclysmic activity as described in various places in the bible including jeremiah 4. Where do these craters appear if not before adam?

I didn't say it was biblical....you must not read very well........

Michael,

I wasn't suggesting that you had said so. I was just pointing out the difference between the viewpoints and how people see them. Many people ASSUME that gap theorists believe in evolution, even though the theory itself is CLEARLY a creation theory, and not an evolutionary theory. I've run into so many people who think that I believe in evolution simply because I believe in an old earth. It's just hard to find people who honestly want to know what the bible has to say....or want an honest and open dialogue.

So, because I don't believe in an old earth, according to you onlyoneimage, I don't honestly want to know what the Bible has to say?
your quote" Its just hard to find people who honestly want to know what the Bible has to say"end quote.
in my honest opinion thoughts like that are not a salvation issue, so in cases like this we are allowed opinions that are different...right?

No yaddy, I said it's HARD TO FIND PEOPLE. Not...that everyone who doesn't believe a particular way is the same. Not kidding, my entire life....I haven't met very many people who had an open mind about what the bible says. I grew up around it. And I wasn't saying that it only applied to people who don't believe in an old earth either. I was generalizing that MOST people really DON'T want truth. They just want their happy little world to continue on the way they think it should.

I grew up believing a young earth, decided that's not what the bible says....now I believe in an old earth.

I grew up believing a pre-trib rapture, decided that's not what the bible says....now I believe in a post-trib pre-wrath rapture.

Want to guess how many people I've met in my life...in real life who have had similar experiences? Let's just say it's not very many. We forget the part about studying and believing the bible rather than what we were taught. Never trust a man...just the word of God.

onlyoneimage wrote:

I grew up believing a young earth, decided that's not what the bible says....now I believe in an old earth.

I grew up believing a pre-trib rapture, decided that's not what the bible says....now I believe in a post-trib pre-wrath rapture.

Want to guess how many people I've met in my life...in real life who have had similar experiences? Let's just say it's not very many. We forget the part about studying and believing the bible rather than what we were taught. Never trust a man...just the word of God.

Hehehe, you might as well be telling my story. I waded through much the same path.

Tell me, in an earlier comment on this thread I made a comment about Jeremiah chapter 4 possibly being a future event and not something in the past. I'm rather surprised that nobody has commented on that view. What do you think? The possibility of this has been niggling at me for a long time and I know it isn't the common view.

Anyway, your view, or anyone else's views here would be most beneficial to me as I try to noodle this one out. As I read chapter 4 in it's entire context I seem to see a lot of "end of the age - day of the Lord" stuff.

That's interesting because I grew up believing in an old earth after reading the works of Clarence Larkin and G.H. Pember.  But, after studying Hebrew and learning more about how the ancient Hebrews thought and wrote, I became a young earth believer.

Researcher, did you read Waltke's paper that I posted above (a link)?  It addresses Jer. 4.

rose from kentucky wrote:

Researcher, did you read Waltke's paper that I posted above (a link)?  It addresses Jer. 4.

No, I didn't. I'm sorry to say that I completely missed the link. Bad, bad, me! I'll go back up and try to find it.

UPDATE: Rose, I scoured all of your posts and I can find no such link. Only links to Hamp & Heiser. You are gonna need to help me out here, girrrrl.  

Modify some more:

rose from kentucky wrote:

No worries.  I'm impressed that you can keep up with everything that happens on this forum.    

Mike Heiser's video that I posted at the end of my post walks a person through the grammar of [url=http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Gen. 1.1-3]Gen. 1:1-3[/url], which is what changed my mind on the matter of the age of the earth.

No wonder that I missed it. I'm familiar with Heiser's Genesis view so how do I get to the Waltke's paper on Jer:4? That's what I'm really interested in.

Thankee

No worries.  I'm impressed that you can keep up with everything that happens on this forum.    

Mike Heiser's video that I posted at the end of my post walks a person through the grammar of Gen. 1:1-3, which is what changed my mind on the matter of the age of the earth.

Rose, I think we posted close to the same time. Go up a couple of posts to my last one. In it I've addressed your Heiser/Genesis video statement.

Okeydokey, here it is:

http://www.michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/WaltkeRestitutionTheory.pdf

Sorry, it was under the Heiser setting.  I'm not trying to set bear traps for you. . . really.

see, if folks will look for the truth, rather than trying reinforce their belief, much can be found out....I am not dogmatic about an old earth, I just believe that is the case,but I don't that for a fact

i like some of the Christians that believe in pre-Adam earth....but i don't believe it....my main source is the Word
lets look at afew facts from the Bible

God created the Earth first
on day 4 God created the Sun,Moon,and the Stars also.....thats the whole Universe
he also created the host thereof in the morning....thats why the Angels shouted for Joy at his creation.....they "saw" Jesus create the stars
concerning Jesus....all things seen and unseen,were created by him...and for him
at the end of this creation ,God says the "FIRST" creation passes away.....not the second
Satan was a murderer from the "beginning"
on the 7th day....God said it was good...he was talking about everything that was made....that includes the stars(matter and Angels)

---
no here's some of my observations from those facts
the face on mars is Jesus, its half lion and half man....that is the son of man,and the lion of Judah
built by angels who gave honor to Jesus when he created the universe...one reason why the Earth rises out of the mouth (Jesus mouth) from the view point standing in the middle of Cydonia....showing how he "spoke the worlds into existence"
---

Satan,and the angelic host saw creation on day 4....but not the earth....and then 2 days later he creates mankind and gives him dominion of the Earth....the most important planet....jealousy maybe??? Between Adam and Jarod...400yrs....satan planned the destruction of man,and started the hybrid race.
---
God creates a prison to put these fallen angels who rebelled,at the time of the flood.....that's Iapateus
David Flynn  first hypothesized that...and i think its what really happened
and I think that's also why George Lucas used it in his movie,and called it "death star"....cause a star is also reffered to as an angel...so its really a "Death Angel"....cause the angels brought death to mankind....and that's where some of them are....there inside the death angel
--
all the craters on earth,moon,mars and asteroids came from one big event at the destruction of rahab the fifth planet....satans....God dashed it to pieces.....the debris caused the rest of the castrophic events....including Noah's flood
--
fact is stranger than fiction....and "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain"

---

now notice how i'm not making it fit "my" beliefs"
I'm making it fit God's Word

the key to understanding....is making it fit into the facts we have in God's Word

researcher,

I've heard the view that it is prophetic and yet future before....but I just cant' reconcile it. At what point will there ever be "no man" on the earth? Not to mention that all of the cities are broken down. It doesn't read like a future event, and it ties right into the destruction of rahab and the fall of Lucifer. No one can rightly place the fall of Lucifer and the events surrounding it without believing in an old earth. If they say it occurred in between the creation of adam and the events in the garden of eden....then why isn't the heavenly battle mentioned in the first couple chapters of genesis? Wouldn't Adam have seen the destruction of rahab.

A young earth view creates a LOT more questions than an old earth view does. Old earth fits the literal text. I've studied the Hebrew on this, and an old earth view is the literal interpretation. The young earth view is the one that makes assumptions about the text and reads in a non-literal format.

The old earth does not fit the literal text.  This is the Jewish Publication Society's translation of the literal text in Hebrew:

1. When God began to create the heavens and the earth-

2. Now the earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep.  And the Spirit of God was hovering above the face of the waters-

3. Then God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.


In this passage, the first two verses describe the condition that exists before God creates anything. There is no earth: only darkness and water.
The first creation of God in this passage is light.  Not the heavens and the earth.  No old earth that is destroyed; no "gap."

This is what the Hebrew says.  It is only in English that there is a gap that allows for an old earth in this passage.

In English it is easy to understand the passage as being a linear progression: 
First God creates the heaven and the earth;
Then, the earth somehow becomes without form and void and the Spirit of God is hovering over it;
Then God creates light.

That is not how it reads in Hebrew.  It is not a linear progression.

Here is the translation of the Common English Bible:

When God began to create the heavens and the earth— 2 the earth was without shape or form, it was dark over the deep sea, and God's wind swept over the waters— 3 God said, "Let there be light." And so light appeared.

You know, I had a whole big thing written out....and I just felt like it came off snotty. I'll keep it simply. I COMPLETELY disagree with that sentiment. Many Hebrew scholars and experts disagree on the translation. Using one as a proof is not only insufficient, but irrelevant. Why? Because the BIBLE interprets the bible. I'll take what it says over anything anyone else says. I've studied the Hebrew on this, I've studied expert opinions...and I believe in the gap theory.

So, answer ONE question. Where in the biblical timeline did all of these massive craters come from? I've NEVER seen an explanation from a young earth creationist of where to place it in the biblical text. What does the bible say about it? A gap theorist not only has an answer, but a very detailed one. The young earth view? Explain where the craters came from.

"Many Hebrew scholars and experts disagree on the translation."

This isn't true.  According to Mike Heiser, not one Hebrew scholar believes in the gap theory.  Let me define a Hebrew scholar as one who has either a master or doctoral degree in the Hebrew language.  I know many Bible teachers still adhere to it: people like J.R. Church and Gary Stearman.  But no one who has studied to the extent in which he or she understands the syntax and that the first statement is a dependent rather than an independent clause as it is mistranslated in the KJV.

This gap theory is almost 150 years old now and doesn't hold water in academic Hebrew language circles.

The craters could not have come in a pre-Adamic time in either instance.  In both translations, the earth was without form and void.  Formless means that it wasn't any sort of shape, nor did it retain shapes.  Void means absent, non-existent.  What we would now say is that the earth was held in solute in the water; it was dissolved and had to be separated out later by God.  It could not have held the impressions of craters, nor volcanoes, nor deep canyons, nor pyramids, nor artifacts.

The craters came to be in a post-Adamic earth, probably at the time of the flood.

In 1948, M. Henkel, a graduate student at the Winona Lake School of Theology, wrote a master’s thesis on “Fundamental Christianity and Evolution.” During the course of his research, he polled 20 leading Hebrew scholars in the United States, and asked each of them if there were any exegetical evidence that would allow for a gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. They unanimously replied—No! (Henkel, 1950, p. 49, n. 30). We are unable to see that anything in this regard has changed in over four-and-a-half decades.

Popular Compromises of Creation—The Gap Theory

by	Bert Thompson, Ph.D.

This was written in 1993.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=9&article=575

where did the craters come from?.....what do you think caused the flood......same HUGE field off debris that crated one side of mars within an hour.....earth was next

its very easy to believe in a 6 thousand year creation...because God said he made the earth,6 thousand years ago.

everything we see confirms young creation

Christians who don't believe in a young creation...are ignoring that the whole galaxy is even young than the earth....God made all the billions of stars on day 4

thats the kind of God we worship   

your going to have to decide if your going to believe in man(your own minds understanding)or God Word on any subjects

by God's on words anything created....seen or unseen....has to fit into this 6 thousand years

so if theres craters on earth,and elsewhere for that matter,then we have to fit it in to God's word,which means the craters happened sometime in the last 6 thousand years.

the creation started off perfect....so we know it didnt happen then.....how about the flood....makes perfect sense.

thats what cuased the "great depths to be broken up"...it was the debris field from rehab final reaching us,after it wiped out the surface of mars.

im telling everyone....cause one day "the powers that be" will show us structures on mars and other places and say they were created by aliens millions of years ago.....the great lie has started....their main motive is to go against the Word of God....and get people to lose their faith and follow after "an unknown god"

im telling them now....cause i wont be here to tell them,if the Tribulation period has already started ........     [img][url=ht]

to remind everyone also....i do love and listen to a few of my favorite Christian speakers.....that believe in pre Adam world....Gary Stearman ,Perry Stone,L.A. Marzulli......i disagree with them of course.....but theres alot i do agree with

i think there just giving into the theory cause they think theres no way to fit it within the 6 thousand years.....like onlyoneimage ,they may think the craters are older than the flood.....and i....as alot of other Christian speakers believe....is that the flood was when these happened....it has to be because there was nothing in space that would cause a crater,until day 4....after the earth had been here for three days

rose,

No Hebrew scholar huh? The very fact that these people you are calling scholars think the gap theory is only 150 years old makes them IGNORANT at best.

Akiba Ben Joseph, Justin Martyr, Tertullien, Origen, etc. believed in the gap theory. The gap theory is as old as the bible itself. This isn't a new theory at all.

It is always interesting that almost every aspect of the "opposition's" claims against the gap theory are based on ignorance. The gap theory predates evolutionary theory.

I'd also like to point out that NOTHING anywhere in the bible suggests that comet impacts caused the flood. Show me ONE verse that suggests the flood was accompanied by comet or asteroid impacts.

moko said "creation started off perfect"...YES ABSOLUTELY. The gap theory agrees with this. Creation began in perfection. The gap theory says that it became corrupt and God judged it. The term "fvoid" in the Hebrew is the word Bohuw, and is ALWAYS spoken of as a chaotic contingency. Isaiah tells us God did NOT create the earth BOHUW, and yet Genesis 1:2 says "the earth was BOHUW".

In order for the bible to reconcile itself as it does.....you have to see that it BECAME bohuw rather than was created that way.

The passage in Jeremiah that uses that word gives the NECESSITY of destruction.

It amazes me that modern "scholars" and I put that in quotes because they are obviously not better than the people who spoke the language and believed it, that they can reject any possibility when there are MASSIVE amounts of passages that they cannot reconcile to a young earth. It becomes allegorical and guess work for them...whereas the gap theory is very precise and laid out in order.

So give me ONE passage of scripture that actually indicates a timing for these craters to appear. Not a single one suggests that they occurred at the time of the flood.

Well, it seems that a few ancient theologians were as ignorant of Hebrew syntax as modern old earth theologians.  These theologians did not believe in a "gap" as much as they believed that the Creation account was allegorical - not a literal account of Creation.

The grammar and vocabulary you cite has already been refuted.  I'll post that next.

I've already answered the crater question: proof text Gen. 1:2.  See explanation above.

Arguments Presented in Support of the Gap Theory
Advocates of the Gap Theory base their beliefs on several arguments, a summary of which is given here; comments and refutation follow.

1. Gap theorists suggest that the word bara (used in Genesis 1:1, 21, 27) must mean “to create” (i.e.: ex nihilo creation), while the word asah cannot mean “to create,” but rather means “to make.” Therefore, the original creation was “created”; the creation of the six days was “made” (i.e., “made over”).
   
2. Gap theorists suggest that the Hebrew verb hayetha (translated “was” in Genesis 1:2) should be rendered “became” or “had become”—a translation required in order to suggest a change of state from the original perfect creation to the chaotic conditions implied in verse 2.
   
3. Gap theorists believe that the “without form and void” of Genesis 1:2 (tohu wabohu) can refer only to something once in a state of repair, but now ruined. Pember accepted these words as expressing “an outpouring of the wrath of God.” Gap theorists believe that the cataclysm that occurred was on the Earth, and was the direct result of Satan’s rebellion against God. The cataclysm, of course, is absolutely essential to the Gap Theory. Isaiah 14:12-15 and Ezekiel 28:11-17 are used as proof-texts to bolster the theory.
   
4.  
   Gap theorists believe that Isaiah 45:18 (“God created the earth not in vain”—tohu; same word translated “without form” in Genesis 1:2) indicates that the Earth was not tohu at the initial creation. Therefore, they suggest, Genesis 1:2 can refer only to a judgment brought upon the Earth by God.
   
5. Gap theorists generally believe that there was a pre-Adamic creation of both non-human and human forms—a position adopted to account for the fossils present in the geologic strata.
   

The Gap Theory—A Refutation
I would like to suggest the following reasons why the Gap Theory should be rejected.
1. The Gap Theory is false because of the mental gymnastics necessary to force its strained argumentation to agree with the actual biblical text.
Bernard Ramm, a progressive creationist, has admitted as much:

Quote :

It gives one of the grandest passages in the Bible a most peculiar interpretation. From the earliest Bible interpretation this passage has been interpreted by Jews, Catholics, and Protestants as the original creation of the universe. In six majestic days the universe and all of life is brought into being. But according to Rimmer’s view the great first chapter of Genesis, save for the first verse, is not about original creation at all, but about reconstruction. The primary origin of the universe is stated in but one verse. This is not the most telling blow against the theory but it certainly indicates that something has been lost to make the six days of creation anti-climactic. So entrenched has this theory become in hyper-orthodox circles that they feel as if the foundations are removed if this theory is criticized, whereas the majority of commentators feel that the entire theory has a peculiarity to it in that it makes the great creation chapter the second time round! (1954, p. 138, emp. in orig.).

2. The Gap Theory is false because it is based on an incorrect distinction between God’s creating (bara) and making (asah).
According to the standard rendition of the Gap Theory, the word bara must refer to “creating” (i.e., an “original” creation), while asah can refer only to “making” (i.e., not an original creation, but something either “made over” or made from preexisting materials). A survey of these two words in the Old Testament, however, clearly indicates that they are used interchangeably. Morris has observed:

Quote :

The Hebrew words for “create” (bara) and for “make” (asah) are very often used quite interchangeably in Scripture, at least when God is the one referred to as creating or making. Therefore, the fact that bara is used only three times in Genesis 1 (vv. 1, 21, and 27) certainly does not imply that the other creative acts, in which “made” or some similar expression is used, were really only acts of restoration. For example, in Genesis 1:21, God “created” the fishes and birds; in 1:25, He “made” the animals and creeping things. In verse 26, God speaks of “making” man in His own image. The next verse states that God “created” man in His own image. No scientific or exegetical ground exists for distinction between the two processes, except perhaps a matter of grammatical emphasis... (1966, p. 32).

The insistence by Gap theorists, and those sympathetic with them, that the word bara always must mean “to create something from nothing,” simply is incorrect. In his commentary, The Pentateuch, Old Testament scholar C.F. Keil concluded that when bara appears in its basic form, as it does in Genesis 1,

Quote :

...it always means to create, and is only applied to a divine creation, the production of that which had no existence before. It is never joined with an accusative of the material, although it does not exclude a pre-existent material unconditionally, but is used for the creation of man (ver. 27, ch. v. 1,2), and of everything new that God creates, whether in the kingdom of nature (Num. xvi.30) or of that of grace (Ex. xxxiv.10; Ps. li.10, etc.) (1980, 1:47, first emp. in orig.; last emp. added).

There are numerous examples where bara and asah are used interchangeably. In Psalm 148:1-5, the writer spoke of the “creation” (bara) of the angels. Yet when Nehemiah addressed the creation of angels (9:6), he employed the word asah to describe it. In Genesis 1:1, the text speaks of God “creating” (bara) the Earth. But when Nehemiah spoke of that same event (9:6), he employed the word asah. When Moses wrote of man’s “creation,” he used bara (Genesis 1:27). But one verse before that (1:26), he spoke of the “making” (asah) of man. Moses also employed the two words in the same verse when he said: “These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created [bara], in the day that Jehovah made [asah] earth and heaven” (Genesis 2:4).
Gap theorists teach that the Earth was created (bara) from nothing in Genesis 1:1. However, Moses stated in Genesis 2:4 that the Earth was made (asah). Gap theorists are on record as advocating the view that asah can refer only to that which is made from something already in existence. Do they believe that when Moses spoke of the Earth being “made,” it was formed from something already in existence?
One verse with which proponents of the Gap Theory have never dealt adequately is Nehemiah 9:6.

Quote :

Thou art Jehovah, even thou alone; thou hast made [asah] heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all things that are thereon, the seas, and all that is in them, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

The following quotation from Fields explains why this verse is so extremely critical in a refutation of the Gap Theory.

Quote :

While the passages in Genesis cited by one of the lexicons...mention only the making of the firmament, sun, moon, stars, and animals, it must be carefully marked by the reader that in Nehemiah 9:6 the objects of God’s making (asa) include the heavens, the host of heavens, and the earth, and everything contained in and on it, and the seas and everything they contain, as well as the hosts of heaven (probably angels).

Quote :

Now this is a very singular circumstance, for those who argue for the distinctive usage of asa throughout Scripture must, in order to maintain any semblance of consistency, never admit that the same creative acts can be referred to by both the verb bara and the verb asa. Thus, since Genesis 1:1 says that God created (bara) the heavens and the earth, and Exodus 20:11 and Nehemiah 9:6 contend that he made (asa) them, there must be two distinct events in view here....

Quote :

So that, while asa is quite happily applied to the firmament, sun, moon, stars, and the beasts, its further application to everything else contained in the universe, and, indeed, the universe itself (which the language in both Exodus 20:11 and Nehemiah 9:6 is intended to convey) creates a monstrosity of interpretation which should serve as a reminder to those who try to fit Hebrew words into English molds, that to strait-jacket these words is to destroy the possibility of coherent interpretation completely! (1976, pp. 61-62, emp. in orig.).

3. The Gap Theory is false because, in the context of Genesis 1:2, there is no justification for translating the verb “was” (hayetha) as “became.”
Gap theorists insist that the Earth became “waste and void” after Satan’s rebellion. Yet usage of the verb hayah argues against the translation, “The earth became waste and void” (Genesis 1:2). Ramm has noted:

Quote :

The effort to make was mean became is just as abortive. The Hebrews did not have a word for became but the verb to be did service for to be and become. The form of the verb was in Genesis 1:2 is the Qal, perfect, third person singular, feminine. A Hebrew concordance will give all the occurrences of that form of the verb. A check in the concordance with reference to the usage of this form of the verb in Genesis reveals that in almost every case the meaning of the verb is simply was. Granted in a case or two was means became but if in the preponderance of instances the word is translated was, any effort to make one instance mean became, especially if that instance is highly debatable, is very insecure exegesis (1954, p. 139, emp. in orig.).

The verb hayetha of Genesis 1:2 is translated “was” in all the standard translations because that is its meaning. Surely it is significant that none of the Old Testament linguists felt compelled to translate hayetha to suggest that the Earth became waste and void, as gap theorists propose.
4. We reject the Gap Theory because tohu wabohudoes not mean only “something once in a state of repair, but now ruined.”
Gap theorists believe that God’s “initial” creation was perfect, but became “waste and void” as a result of Satan’s rebellion. Whitcomb has responded:

Quote :

“Without form and void” translate the Hebrew expression tohu wabohu, which literally means “empty and formless.” In other words, the Earth was not chaotic, not under a curse of judgment. It was simply empty of living things and without the features that it later possessed, such as oceans and continents, hills and valleys—features that would be essential for man’s well-being. In other words, it was not an appropriate home for man.... [W]hen God created the Earth, this was only the first state of a series of stages leading to its completion (1973, 2:69-70).

5. The Gap Theory is erroneous because there is no evidence for the claim that Satan’s rebellion was on the Earth, or responsible for any great “cataclysm.”
The idea of a cataclysm that destroyed the initial perfect Earth is not supported by an appeal to Scripture, as Morris has explained.

Quote :

There is, in fact, not a word in Scripture to connect Satan with the earth prior to his rebellion. On the other hand, when he sinned, he was expelled from heaven to the earth.... There is, therefore, no scriptural reason to connect Satan’s fall in heaven with a cataclysm on earth.... That Satan was not on earth, at least not as a wicked rebel against God, prior to Adam’s creation, is quite definite from Genesis 1:31. “And God saw everything that He had made, and...it was very good.” ...Therefore, Satan’s sin must have occurred after man’s creation (1974, pp. 233-234, emp. in orig.).

6. We reject the Gap Theory because its proof-text (Isaiah 45:18) is premised on a removal of the verse from its proper context.
Isaiah 45:18 reads:

Quote :

For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God Himself that formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain [the phrase “in vain” is tohu, the same as “without form” in Genesis 1:2—BT], He formed it to be inhabited.

Gap theorists suggest since Isaiah stated that God did not create the Earth tohu, and since the Earth of Genesis 1:2 was tohu, therefore the latter could not have been the Earth as it was created in Genesis 1:1. The implication is that the Earth became tohu as a result of the cataclysm precipitated by Satan’s rebellion.
The immediate context, however, has to do with Israel and God’s promises to His people. Isaiah reminded his listeners that just as God had a purpose in creating the Earth, so He had a purpose for Israel. Isaiah spoke of God’s immense power and special purpose in creation, noting that God created the Earth “to be inhabited”—something accomplished when the Lord created people in His image. In Isaiah 45, the prophet’s message is that God, through His power, likewise will accomplish His purpose for His chosen people, Israel. Morris has remarked:

Quote :

There is no conflict between Isaiah 45:18 and the statement of an initial formless aspect to the created earth in Genesis 1:2. The former can properly be understood as follows: “God created it not (to be forever) without form; He formed it to be inhabited.” As described in Genesis 1, He proceeded to bring beauty and structure to the formless elements and then inhabitants to the waiting lands. It should be remembered that Isaiah 45:18 was written many hundreds of years after Genesis 1:2 and that its context deals with Israel, not a pre-Adamic cataclysm (1974, p. 241).

7. The Gap Theory is false because it implies death of humankind on the Earth prior to Adam.
Pember believed that the fossils (which he felt the Gap Theory explained) revealed death, disease, and ferocity—all tokens of sin. He suggested:

Quote :

Since, then, the fossil remains are those of creatures anterior to Adam, and yet show evident token of disease, death, and mutual destruction, they must have belonged to another world, and have a sin-stained history of their own (1876, p. 35, emp. added).

The idea that the death of humankind occurred prior to Adam’s sin contradicts New Testament teaching which indicates that the death of humankind entered this world as a result of Adam’s sin (1 Corinthians 15:21; Romans 8:20-22; Romans 5:12). Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 15:45 that Adam was “the first man.” Yet long before Adam—if the Gap Theory is correct—there existed a pre-Adamic race of men with (to quote Pember) “a sin-stained history of their own.” The Gap Theory and Paul cannot both be correct.

by  Bert Thompson, Ph.D.


http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=9&article=575

researcher wrote:

onlyoneimage wrote:

I grew up believing a young earth, decided that's not what the bible says....now I believe in an old earth.

I grew up believing a pre-trib rapture, decided that's not what the bible says....now I believe in a post-trib pre-wrath rapture.

Want to guess how many people I've met in my life...in real life who have had similar experiences? Let's just say it's not very many. We forget the part about studying and believing the bible rather than what we were taught. Never trust a man...just the word of God.

Hehehe, you might as well be telling my story. I waded through much the same path.

Tell me, in an earlier comment on this thread I made a comment about Jeremiah chapter 4 possibly being a future event and not something in the past. I'm rather surprised that nobody has commented on that view. What do you think? The possibility of this has been niggling at me for a long time and I know it isn't the common view.

Anyway, your view, or anyone else's views here would be most beneficial to me as I try to noodle this one out. As I read chapter 4 in it's entire context I seem to see a lot of "end of the age - day of the Lord" stuff.

Jeremiah 4: 1-31   That was cool researcher. I totally see it.

Delfi wrote:

Jeremiah 4: 1-31   That was cool researcher. I totally see it.

Thanks, Delfi. I'm glad that you've taken the time to look into this view. That goes for all y'all too, not just Delfi.  

Sorry that I couldn't change the table borders from black to white as I did with some of the text. I couldn't figure out a way to do it. It's clear on the web site link though.

Y'all, in my noodling on this I've run across a commentary that I would like to share. It is from a web page called Prophecy Proofs Insights. http://prophecyproof.blogspot.com/  I'm unfamiliar with this site but the writer has paralleled and documented in his blog the almost exact path of research that I've taken. I was working on an in depth document to post here describing why I have come to the conclusion that Jer. chapter 4 is a future prophecy, but as this link below closely parallels my research I'll just point y'all there instead. This guy saved me a lot of typing. It's remarkable how this all clicks into place when you read it and see the tables of comparative Bible verses that line up with the Jer. 4 verses. Mind blowing.

http://prophecyproof.blogspot.com/2012/01/examining-jeremiah-45-onwards-for.html

Quote :

Examining Jeremiah 4:5 Onwards for Potential End Times Relevance

You’ve probably noticed that I’ve written about several Bible prophecy verses, passages, and chapters in many of my recent articles. The reason I’ve focused so much on Bible prophecy recently is that I am trying to push myself to address certain verses and chapters so that I can facilitate the completion of the series of articles I’m working on in relation to Ezekiel 38, Ezekiel 39, Revelation 17, Ezekiel 7, Jeremiah 25:15-38, and other important Bible prophecy chapters.

Jeremiah 4 is another chapter that I want to address as I work towards the completion of the series of articles that I’m working on. I’ll share today why I currently think that Jeremiah 4:5 onwards may have potential End Times implications

Jeremiah 4:5 onwards is about an attack on Judah and Jerusalem. The specific time frame of the attack is not explicitly stated, but many Bible commentators believe that the attack took place during the time of the Babylonians.

• I think there is a strong possibility that this attack of Jerusalem and Judah occurred during the time of the Babylonians since Jeremiah prophesized around a time when Jerusalem was about be threatened by the Babylonians. However, I also think there is a possibility that Jeremiah 4:5 onwards has dual fulfillment (fulfillment during Jeremiah's time and future fulfillment). I’ll provide examples of why I think there is a possibility of a future fulfillment next.
  

The first thing that makes me ponder whether Jeremiah 4:5 onwards has future implications is that the leader of the military force coming against Jerusalem and Judah is referred to as the “destroyer of the Gentiles”.

• Jer 4:5 Declare ye in Judah, and publish in Jerusalem; and say, Blow ye the trumpet in the land: cry, gather together, and say, Assemble yourselves, and let us go into the defenced cities.
  
• Jer 4:6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction.
  
• Jer 4:7 The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant.
  
• Jer 4:8 For this gird you with sackcloth, lament and howl: for the fierce anger of the LORD is not turned back from us.
  

The title “destroyer of the Gentiles” could apply to Nebuchadnezzar, but the title is also seems (or even more) befitting of a future leader of a very powerful military force.

Another reason I see potential for Jeremiah 4:5 onwards to have dual fulfillment is that Jeremiah 4:9 includes the phrase “at that day”.

• Jer 4:9 And it shall come to pass at that day, saith the LORD, that the heart of the king shall perish, and the heart of the princes; and the priests shall be astonished, and the prophets shall wonder.
  

The phrase “at that day” appears elsewhere in the Book of Jeremiah, including Jeremiah 25:33, a verse that is part of a passage that I believe is very relevant to the End Times (Jeremiah 25:15-38).

• Jer 25:33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.
  

Another consideration is that Jeremiah 4:9 mentions that the religious and political elite of Jerusalem will be caught completely off guard by events. The downfall of Jerusalem’s political and religious elite is found elsewhere in Bible prophecy including the verses shown in the following table:

Jer 4:9  And it shall come to pass at that day, saith the LORD, that the heart of the king shall perish, and the heart of the princes; and the priests shall be astonished, and the prophets shall wonder.

Isa 3:1  For, behold, the Lord, the LORD of hosts, doth take away from Jerusalem and from Judah the stay and the staff, the whole stay of bread, and the whole stay of water, Isa 3:2  The mighty man, and the man of war, the judge, and the prophet, and the prudent, and the ancient, Isa 3:3  The captain of fifty, and the honourable man, and the counsellor, and the cunning artificer, and the eloquent orator. Isa 3:4  And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.

Eze 7:26  Mischief shall come upon mischief, and rumour shall be upon rumour; then shall they seek a vision of the prophet; but the law shall perish from the priest, and counsel from the ancients. Eze 7:27  The king shall mourn, and the prince shall be clothed with desolation, and the hands of the people of the land shall be troubled: I will do unto them after their way, and according to their deserts will I judge them; and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Zep 1:8  And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD'S sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel. Zep 1:9  In the same day also will I punish all those that leap on the threshold, which fill their masters' houses with violence and deceit.

The final portion of Jeremiah 4 is also something to consider when evaluating Jeremiah 4:5 onwards’s potential relevance to the End Times. Jeremiah 4:23-28 describes how desolated the land becomes.

• Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
  
• Jer 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
  
• Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
  
• Jer 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
  
• Jer 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
  
• Jer 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
  

Jeremiah 4:23-24 are particularly noteworthy because these verses parallel some of what is found in Isaiah 24, a chapter that I believe relates to the End Times.

Jer 4:23  I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. Jer 4:24  I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

Isa 24:1  Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof. … Isa 24:3  The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word. Isa 24:4  The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish. … Isa 24:19  The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. Isa 24:20  The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

In addition, the wide-scale desolation described in Jeremiah 4:23-28 parallels the impact that the army described in Joel will have.

Jer 4:26  I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. Jer 4:27  For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. Jer 4:28  For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

Joe 2:1  Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; Joe 2:2  A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. Joe 2:3  A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them. … Joe 2:10  The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

Like with the other chapters I’ve written about recently, Jeremiah 4:5 onwards may serve as additional piece to understanding an End Times siege of Jerusalem mentioned in Zechariah 12:1-2 and Zechariah 14:1-2.  For example, Jeremiah 4:16-17 mentions that the watchers (a word that can also be translated to mean “besiegers” in Hebrew) will lay siege against Jerusalem and the cities of Judah.

Jer 4:16  Make ye mention to the nations; behold, publish against Jerusalem, that watchers come from a far country, and give out their voice against the cities of Judah. Jer 4:17  As keepers of a field, are they against her round about; because she hath been rebellious against me, saith the LORD.

Zec 12:1  The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. Zec 12:2  Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

In addition, Jeremiah 4:13 and Isaiah 5:26-30 describe the incoming military force similarly (I’ve also include verse 4:28 in the table below to show another parallel between Isaiah 5 and Jeremiah 4).

Jer 4:13  Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled. … Jer 4:28  For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

Isa 5:26  And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly: Isa 5:27  None shall be weary nor stumble among them; none shall slumber nor sleep; neither shall the girdle of their loins be loosed, nor the latchet of their shoes be broken: Isa 5:28  Whose arrows are sharp, and all their bows bent, their horses' hoofs shall be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind: Isa 5:29  Their roaring shall be like a lion, they shall roar like young lions: yea, they shall roar, and lay hold of the prey, and shall carry it away safe, and none shall deliver it. Isa 5:30  And in that day they shall roar against them like the roaring of the sea: and if one look unto the land, behold darkness and sorrow, and the light is darkened in the heavens thereof.

In sum, here again are the reasons why Jeremiah 4:5 onwards may have potential End Times implications:

• The leader of the military force besieging Judah and Jerusalem is known as the “destroyer of the Gentiles”
  

• The phrase “at that day” appears in Jeremiah 4:9.
  

• The political and religious elite of Jerusalem are completely caught off guard by the events transpiring; something that is described elsewhere in Bible prophecy.
  

• The final portion of Jeremiah 4 parallels certain parts of Isaiah 24 and Joel 2.
  

If you have any thoughts about this or any other topic feel free to share in the comments section.

Researcher,  that sounds very probable.  It could be one of those passages that have a double perspective - it refers to something in Jeremiah's near future and then to a larger echo of that same kind of event in the far future.  Prophecy is pattern.

One of the articles the Colonel put up this morning got me thinking about this again.  This is the article:
 
https://watchermeet-up.forumotion.com/t7081-massive-dinosaur-soft-tissue-discovery-in-china-includes-skin-and-feathers
 
This talks about a find in China in which soft tissue was found still intact on dinosaur bones, and how that fact flies in the face of the "millions of years" assumptions of those who believe that life evolved, rather than was created, on this planet, and that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago.
 
How does that relate to the debate above?  Well, I have found that those who believe in an old earth and pre-adamite civilization inevitably start with science as their foundation - not scripture.  I know that is hard to hear, and I am NOT saying that they (or any of you) are Darwinian evolutionists.  What I am saying is that they've been very subtly deceived into starting with science as their foundational belief.
 
I'll give you an example.  Michael, I'm going to use one of your comments as an example because from your own statements I know that you are a follower of Christ and that you are open-minded about these topics.  You said that you are "not dogmatic" about it, but trying to look at all angles in order to come to the truth.
 
Several posts above, Michael states:
 
okay, light travels at 186,000 miles per second and distances stretching out in the universe is measured I "light years", so one light year would be the distance that light travels in one year, at 186,000 miles per second.....for example, when you see the sun rise in the morning, you are actually seeing the sun as it was 61/2 minutes ago, because that how long it took for that light to reach the earth.....okay, with me so far?.....now, the new technology that is allowing astronomers, can see out in the universe for some absurd, never before distances, with estimates of up to 13 billion light years away,as seen in this article from nasa

   http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/hubble/science/farthest-galaxy.html

if this is even a badly skewed estimate, and it is only say, 100,000 light years away for argument, it would take 100,000 years for that star to be able to be seen on the earth from its creation....do the math
 
I understand this argument because we both were taught growing up that light travels at a constant speed, therefore this is a quandary.  However, the science we were taught was wrong - Einstein was wrong.  Light travels at different speeds depending on the medium through which it is passing.
 
My point?  Instead of going to God and saying, "I don't get this.  Please explain it to me."  We try to reshape the Bible to fit the scientific explanation (Michael, I'm not saying that's what you are doing - it's a common argument).  And by doing that, our course becomes so skewed that we lose sight of the truth and start to lose the power we’ve been given in God’s word to discern the signs of the times and the history that has gotten us to this point.  The antediluvian world is forgotten, even though Jesus said that as it once was, it will be again.

I took many science classes and was taught things like there’s no water on the moon (ha), and that Mars was and always has been a dead, dry, lifeless planet (ha, ha), etc.  Science changes.  God’s word never does.

I have to ask why someone would reject the testimony of every Hebrew language scholar of the 20^th and 21^st centuries concerning the translation of Gen.1:1-3.  Doug Hamp studied the Hebrew language at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem – he was taught Hebrew by Hebrews, and do you know how the Jewish Publishing Society translated these passages?

1. When God began to create the heavens and the earth-
2. Now the earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep.  And the Spirit of God was hovering above the face of the waters-
3. Then God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.


Why would anyone argue with that?  I’ll tell you why.  What onlyoneimage said was true, that…

“…a young earth view creates a LOT more questions than an old earth view does."


Science gives people the illusion that they have all the answers, and yet the Bible very uncomfortably reminds us that we still don’t have a clue as to how God created this universe.  All it says is that He did and it gives us a few of the highlights.  It is a disturbing place for God-fearing people to stand in the presence of the almost overwhelming haughtiness of Darwinistic evolutionists.

I didn’t come back to this subject because I want to reopen the debate.  What I would like is for each person who reads this to examine him or herself to make sure you’ve not allowed yourself to be deceived.  I know that I was because I was an ardent student who went to public schools and universities and I couldn’t avoid the brainwashing, yet I didn’t want to give up my faith.  So I made compromises.  I was so wrong to do this, and I am still in the process of rectifying that now.

I will end with a quote I recently read from George Bloomer’s Witchcraft in the Pews:


Deception is a brutal beast that nibbles ever so subtly at the core of our faith until we turn to what’s killing us for replenishment, instead of turning to God for renewed strength.


God bless you,
Rose

That is so true Rose.....even pastors tell me about how fast light years travel etc.....obviously they have also started with the incorrect science instead of God's Word....