The Thessalonians Nightmare

The Thessalonians Nightmare
 
In Defense of the Faith 
Friday, October 10, 2014 
Alf Cengia 



A few years ago I came across a pastor who wrote that the pretrib rapture theory has no basis of support and avoids interacting with problem passages such as 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8.


Recently, prewrath proponent Chris White produced a popular eight minute YouTube presentation which claims that 2 Thess 2 is a nightmare for pretribbers. He says he's "heard many pretrib sermons and read many commentaries," and "almost none of them are the same."


So, do pretribulationists ignore or scramble to explain?


Oddly enough, two minutes of this video is devoted to an acknowledged pretrib minority view that the apostasy is the rapture. Rosenthal saw the apostasy as a Jewish revolt occurring during the first five seals (The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church p 197). In The Sign (Second Edition pp 431-432, 487) Van Kampen appeared to agree. Yet in a later book he modified his position by declaring that the apostasy and the revealing of the Antichrist are a "single event, occurring simultaneously" at the Abomination of Desolation (The Rapture Question Answered p 120, see note 3).


Based on 2 Thess 2:4, proponents of the view say the Antichrist is revealed at the Abomination of Desolation when Michael the Archangel ceases his restraint. White asserts that Paul is telling the Thessalonians that the "falling away" (apostasy) and the revelation of the Antichrist must precede the rapture.


Eric Douma notes that 2 Thess 2:4 describes what the Antichrist does, not when he is revealed. Even if Michael was the Restrainer (I don't think he is), it makes no sense that he should cease his restraint at Daniel 12:1. This same verse states that Michael stands watch over Israel and that Israel will be delivered, and it correlates to Rev 12:7-8. Michael fights until Israel's redemption.


F. F. Bruce writes that The Apostasy is likely a wholesale rebellion of public order, not just a Jewish or Christian rebellion. He sees this rebellion as coincident with the arrival of the Antichrist (Bruce, 1 & 2 Thessalonians p 167).


This is important because, as Douma explains, this apostasy and associated arrival of the Antichrist are likely to occur at the beginning of the 70th week. Therefore the Restrainer's cessation must occur by the time of the opening of the 1st seal when the Antichrist rides out conquering, and confirms The Covenant.


In White's view, the rapture piggybacks with the Day of the Lord, so he treats them as one synergistic event. Yet the book Antichrist Before the Day of the Lord has a chart depicting the 6th seal as portending God's wrath, then an interlude and then the 7th seal pronounces God's future wrath (p 99).


Accordingly, the rapture occurs somewhere between the 6th and 7th seals. If the Day of the lord occurs after the 7th seal then it cannot be the same event as the rapture. Pretribulationists are therefore correct in maintaining a distinction between the rapture and the Day of the Lord (2 Thess 2:1-2).


In the video, White paraphrases Paul and Jesus:

Quote :

"He [Paul] says that neither the falling away nor the Antichrist revealing himself in the temple had happened and so, therefore, the Rapture could not have happened yet either. Paul is essentially reminding them of the Bible study he gave them of the Olivet Discourse - or Matthew 24. He's about to remind them what events need to happen before the gathering together. This exact same phrase in English (gathering together) and Greek (episunago) are used by Jesus in Matthew 24 to refer to the rapture...."

We've seen in previous columns that Matt 24:31 is not the rapture. The word episunago sounds important, but it isn't significant to the rapture since it's also used for Israel's gathering in Matt 23:37.


While White presumes Paul refers to the Olivet Discourse, he cannot allow Paul's reference to birth pangs (1 Thess 5:3) to equal the pangs at Matt 24:8. This is because Paul's birth pangsform part of the Day of the Lord. In contrast, White's system has the birth pangs within the 70th week but preceding the Day of the Lord.
Jack Kelley rightly points out:

Quote :

"Paul criticized the Thessalonians for being so easily alarmed by a letter that turned out to be a forgery, saying the Day of the Lord had already come. Think about that. If he had taught them a post-trib rapture position, they would have known that in just a few years they’d be in Eternity."

Even taking White's position that the Great Tribulation is followed by the Day of the Lord, we should wonder why Paul didn't comfort the Thessalonians regarding the worst time there ever was or ever will be (Jer 30:7; Dan 12:1; Joel 2:2; Matt 24:21-22). And how can the Day of the Lord possibly be worse than the worst time ever? The Great Tribulation is so severe that it must be terminated otherwise no flesh would survive (Matt 24:22).


White's view has the trumpet and bowl judgments containing God's wrath. We know fromRev 11:2, 13:5 that the Beast's empire lasts 42 months, and the 5th bowl is poured on the kingdom of the Beast (Rev 16:10). This confirms that the Great Tribulation is contained within the Day of the Lord. Also, in Isaiah 2, the context is a Day of the Lord (v 12) containing an event (vv 19 & 21) which parallels the 6th seal.


If that isn't enough, in Ezek 7:3-19 we find references to God's anger, fury and wrath associated with famine, sword and pestilence (v 15) and this time in context to the Day of the Lord's wrath (v 19). These are also components of the 4th seal. This suggests that the Day of the Lord is present throughout the 70th week.


Aside from this, White has a problem with 2 Thess 2:8 which states that Antichrist is destroyed at Christ's appearing (Isaiah 11:4). Antichrist is not destroyed at the beginning of the Day of the Lord, yet his view has Christ appearing before then.


One solution was to say the Antichrist is "handcuffed" at v 8. But how can that be if he musters armies to Armageddon? A more recent strategy is to say that Christ's "single" appearance occurs over an extended period (involving several comings) culminating in the Antichrist's destruction.


To be consistent, then, there should be no objection to the pretribulational appearance of Christ to gather His church within the broader scope of a "single" appearance.


Finally, Robert L Thomas has shown that the Greek construct in 2 Thess 2:3 allows for two possibilities:

Quote :

"It can mean that the coming of the apostasy and the revelation of the man of lawlessness precede the day of the Lord [not the rapture], or it can mean that the coming of the apostasy precedes the revelation of the man of lawlessness, both being within the day of the Lord." (Emphasis mine)

Thomas argues for the latter based on 1 Thess 5:2-3 (and other reasons). The pangs are part of the Day of the Lord and destruction comes while they are saying peace and safety. This aligns with Matt 24:36-39 where Jesus says the coming of the Son of Man would be during a time ofrelative normality. There is no peace and safety after the 2nd and 4th seals or during the Great Tribulation.


Taking into account all the above observations, Thomas is likely correct.


It is disingenuous to claim in an eight minute video that 2 Thess 2 is a nightmare for pretribulationists (quite the contrary). This is part of a growing YouTube-Theology phenomenon where attacks are made on pretribulationism using short sound bites.


Contrary to these skeptics, Scripture strongly infers a pretribulational rapture. The following promise is given to the Philadelphian Church just before the opening of the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl judgments:

Quote :

Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. Rev 3:10

Maranatha!


http://www.omegaletter.com/articles/articles.asp?ArticleID=7905

Although the bible doesn’t specifically say what the apostasy is (to my knowledge), it’s possible that it may be the one world church - a falling away from the true faith. The falling away may happen after a time of trouble after which the antichrist will bring peace, order and stability. Most likely he would be seen as a messiah/savior figure. Following him would definitely be considered apostasy. That’s one of the reasons why I believe the first 3 seals will be the time of trouble which will herald the rise of the antichrist at the 4th seal (although scripturally-speaking there are more reasons than that).

To speak to the Michael issue. There are good scriptural references that place Michael exactly at that point.

Daniel 12:1 Michael will stand up. There will be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that time. Thy people will be delivered.

Matthew 24:15-16 When you see the abomination of desolation, flee to the mountains. ...
Matthew 24:21 For then will be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time.

These match. They are speaking of the same event.

Both Matthew 24:15 (above) and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 (below) speak of the abomination of desolation. Daniel 12:11 gives us the timeframe: 30 days before the mid-point of the tribulation.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 [son of perdition] who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Daniel 12:11 From the time that the daily sacrifice will be taken away, and the abomination of desolation set up, there will be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

He shows up before this time but when he sits in the temple of God as God, this will certainly be an abomination.

Quote :

We've seen in previous columns that Matt 24:31 is not the rapture. The word episunago sounds important, but it isn't significant to the rapture since it's also used for Israel's gathering in Matt 23:37.

If that’s not the “rapture”, then there is no rapture referred to in the bible at all. Either this is it or there isn’t one. It’s that simple. If anyone can show me another verse anywhere that speaks of a rapture that does not refer to this time, I will eat my words.

Also, as previously shown, this is the time of Daniel 12:1. Daniel 12:2 speaks of the rising of the dead.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

As we all know, the dead in Christ rise first (before the rapture).

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel (Michael?), and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So there is absolutely no possibility of a rapture before that point. That is a FACT that you just can't get around.

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And how can the Day of the Lord possibly be worse than the worst time ever? The Great Tribulation is so severe that it must be terminated otherwise no flesh would survive (Matt 24:22).

and

Quote :

White's view has the trumpet and bowl judgments containing God's wrath. We know fromRev 11:2, 13:5 that the Beast's empire lasts 42 months, and the 5th bowl is poured on the kingdom of the Beast (Rev 16:10). This confirms that the Great Tribulation is contained within the Day of the Lord. Also, in Isaiah 2, the context is a Day of the Lord (v 12) containing an event (vv 19 & 21) which parallels the 6th seal.

What if this “day of the Lord” period lasts for 3.5 years? It's a distinct possibility.

I could address the rest of the arguments (maybe later) but for now, this should be enough. The only reason 2 Thessalonians 2 is a nightmare for pretribulationists is that it firmly places the rapture no sooner than (30 days before) the mid-point of the 7-year tribulation.

Now if a pre-tribber happened to say, "I meant the Great Tribulation" (the last 3 1/2 yrs), a lot more people come into agreement.   

I'm pretty sure Dave Flynn tied the Rapture to the "Come up here" call to the two witnesses.
(but I'll double check right now.)

i agree Dove. As different as our opinions sound, most of us are suprisingly close to saying the same thing except for a few details.

i like the writer of this article. He brings up very important things that are missed by the other camp. And i like Chris White too. He makes some very good points. If they were to actually take note of what each other says, it would be like iron sharpening iron and we would all benefit.

Can someone please address the issue with trumpets? How can any trumpet that happens before the 7th trumpet...be the "last trumpet"? After the tribulation a trumpet sounds at the second coming. This is clear in Matthew 24.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."-Matthew 24:29-31

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"-1 Thessalonians 4:16

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."-1 Corinthians 15:52

I actually find THAT to be the biggest scriptural problem with a rapture happening more than 10 days before the feet of Jesus touch the ground.

I used to read Daniel 12 as showing a "mid-trib" rapture scenario. However, when I realized that the explanation given to Daniel below was saying that "from the beginning of these things" to the "end of these things" there would be 1,290 days....that the beginning spoken of contextually was the abomination of desolation, and the end of these things is the rapture...I realized that the rapture happens at the end of the tribulation.

Still.....it's hard not to want to be wrong on this. One thing I do think for sure.....the rapture happens at the last trumpet. So if you can identify when the last trumpet sounds....that is when the rapture should happen. Unfortunately I place that at the end of the tribulation. I used to place that at the middle thereabout. Maybe someone can convince me otherwise.

when Thessalonians
was written,it was before the book of Revelation,so no one thought about the trumpets during the trib.....at that time...the only meaning of the "last trumpet" was the Jewish festival of trumpets,same time Jesus created everything....and when he planned his own birth.
during this festival,that's different then all the rest that God established,there were two trumpets blown,and no one ever knew when "the last trumpet" would be blown....well,they didn't know the "day or hour"
that's also why alot of people believe the Rapture will happen during this time.....generally between the last week of September,and the first week of October.
the first three festivals were fulfilled during Jesus ministry,and they last three are still to come....starting with the real begging of the year.

This last blood moon was during this time,and the one in 2015 is alsio.....we know the month....just not the "day or hour".....sorry about my spelling,my phone doesnt do to well on here

Hold on to your crown of believeing in the Rapture

Can someone please address the issue with trumpets? How can any trumpet that happens before the 7th trumpet...be the "last trumpet"? After the tribulation a trumpet sounds at the second coming. This is clear in Matthew 24.

Here's one. When Paul wrote to the church at Thessaloniki,  it was at least 35 years BEFORE John recorded his visions on Patmos.  Yet, they knew exactly what Paul was referring to.
And Perry has so much more detailed study on this.  One is how the final trump blown at Rosh Hashanah, Yom Teruah was and is known as 'The Last Trump'.


Hear Perry present it here on part 2 of a series:



Here's the rest of the series:

Part 1:






Part 3:

The last trumpet the rapture is refferung to....is Rosh Hashanah
the other "last trumpets"....you do know theres more than one "last trumpet" dont you.....are the other event mentioned....they knew that Paul was referring to the Rosh Hashanah

for the Rapture.......not any of the other "last trumpets" during the 7 year Tribulation period,or at the end

That’s a good question onlyoneimage. Wish that i had a definitive answer to it. i’m still trying to put my ducks in a row in terms of how the events in the OT fit in with Revelation, and will have to study more. In searching Isaiah for trumpets though, i came across some interesting verses. This was one of them:

Isaiah 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
6 He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit.
10 Yet the defenced city shall be desolate, and the habitation forsaken, and left like a wilderness: there shall the calf feed, and there shall he lie down, and consume the branches thereof.
12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

i believe the dragon that is in the sea is Tyre, which appears to be the final Babylon in Revelation 18.

The trumpet blown on Rosh haShanah is called the Last Trumpet and the trumpet blown on Yom Kippur is called the Great Trumpet. So, the trumpet at the end of Revelation may be on Yom Kippur (which makes sense) since they call it “the great trumpet” in the verses above.

Here’s something for your consideration though. Revelation 6th seal through Revelation 7 have much in common with Matthew 24 (symbol-wise) and also with Revelation 14-15. The return of Messiah in Revelation 19 however, is entirely different.

Thanks for the videos Dove, i learned some things from them. On video #1 though, he says the 7 trumpets happen during the first 42 months. i strongly disagree. When the 6th seal of Revelation 6:12-14 is compared to Matthew 24:29, you can see they are speaking of the same event and we know that the Matthew version happens after the abomination of desolation. We also know that the abomination of desolation is at the end of the first half of the 7 years. So, it’s just not possible to place all of the trumpets into the first 42 months, unless of course, they happen within the last 30 days, which is possible.

i would have to stop at Revelation 9 the 5th trumpet angel (opening the pit) though, and say that we’ve definitely crossed over into the 2nd half here (if we weren’t already) because the men in verse 5 are tormented for 5 months, which would definitely put them over 30 days.

Well of course I knew the Rosh Hashanah answer. In fact that is kind of my point. The rapture WILL HAPPEN ON ROSH HASHANAH....but not at the beginning of the tribulation....at the END. It is an arching event.

The Second coming will actually exist as one event occurring in a 10 day period. The rapture will happen...where we will be caught up, married to Him and His feet will touch the ground on that 10th day.

So when people try to use Rosh Hashanah as a pretext to a pre-trib rapture, it makes absolutely not relevance to the argument of pre-tribulation doctrine itself...because all that thessalonians is saying is "it will happen on a Rosh Hashanah". The trumpet will be blown in the context of Matthew 24 saying so.

BTW: I studied one of Perry Stone's teachings(I was a ministry partner of VOE for a long time) that was so studied out....that it actually made my thoughts contradict the study. I realized that I was presupposing a meaning in many passages.

Also, have any of you ever read "unleashing the beast"? Great book by Perry Stone. When I was younger I agreed with it. Now I don't so much...but still a great book and great theory. I have a signed first edition copy.

"unleashing the beast"   No,  I don't have that one, but it seems every week he has new material available and I  always get something edifying in whatever he puts out.  I'm still a 'partner' myself, while not agreeing all the time either.  I'm happy that he is making a way for the youth to know Christ, even if it looks a little funky to me sometimes.

I've remained pretty simple in my eschatology because of the "Restrainer", whom I take to be the Holy Ghost.  As long as He is on the earth, then "A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee".
And when He is removed, wherever He goes, I go.


That isn't glib or pie in the sky faith.  It's been hard fought and hard won to find and then aim to stay-abide in this Kingdom of His. One can't do that based on anyone else's teaching.  They can only point us in the right direction.  We absolutely do have to walk the walk for ourselves.
The fallen world is constantly rattling the Gates, and I've been here just about every day through the shakes and rattles since He told me where we're at and to tell the people.


But as the waters rise, we have to keep climbing higher.  Eventually this Rapture will only be one more small step away. And hopefully there will be many with us because of something we were obedient to let Him do or say.


Lovely.  What's my point?  I can't hold a candle to you ladies and men as far as the order of what's coming or how much we'll be on the earth for!   So, I won't frustrate you by trying.

Here's an interesting verse:

Isaiah 60:1-2 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.

8-9 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows? Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.

Lovisa wrote:

Here's an interesting verse:

Isaiah 60:1-2 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.

8-9 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows? Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.

Beautiful verses, Lovisa.   I think today I'll let them be just that, and Rest in the Sufficiency of His Grace with us.