Why We Believe In PreTribulation Rapture – The Rapture Is Imminent!

More Rapture, hopefully it is Imminent because it doesn't look to good in the world......everything is accelerating to a climax or some major black swan event.



Reason Number 13 For Why We Believe In PreTribulation Rapture – The Rapture Is Imminent!
Posted on April 26, 2013




The apostles and the early Church all believed in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. We know that because they believed Jesus could come at any moment, yet they knew they weren’t in the Tribulation.

We find the expectation of Jesus’ coming all over the letters of Peter, Paul, and John. The writings of the earliest of the church fathers carry a strong expectation of the Lord’s coming for the Church. This simply isn’t what we would find if they believed in a mid- or post-tribulation rapture.

They took Jesus’ words literally and seriously when He said, “Watch and be ready, for in such an hour as you think not, the Son of Man comes.”



Finally, Revelation 3:10
In Revelation 3:10-11, Jesus promised the Church at Philadelphia -
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.

Because believers at this persecuted and struggling church kept His command to remain faithful, Jesus promised to keep them from the hour of trial that’s coming upon the whole world.
Many Bible scholars and students have noticed an eerie parallel between the seven churches of Revelation 2 and 3 and Church History. Knowing that the number 7 represents completeness, the thought is, “Do these seven churches, in the order in which they are given, represent the entire church age, represented by seven eras or ages?” It’s difficult not seeing a least a shadowy similarity between the sequence and church history.



The Letter to the church at the Greek city of Philadelphia is the sixth and next to last letter. And the last letter, written to the church at Laodicea suggests while they call themselves a church, Jesus doesn’t. He’s not among them; He’s outside, knocking on the door by way of letting those inside know He’s left.

So Philadelphia is the last real church; the faithful church that sees the departure from the true faith by the affluent mainline denominations. It’s to the faithful of the last real church that Jesus says, “I will keep you from the hour of trial.”

“From” is the Greek word “ek/ex” and means “out of.” We get the word “exit” from it. Jesus is not saying He will keep them through the hour of trial, but that He will take them out of it.

Then notice Jesus doesn’t promise to keep them out of the trial. It’s out of the hour or time period of the trial. They won’t even be around.

Consider the scope of this coming trial: It comes upon the whole world. There isn’t a corner of Earth that won’t be affected by this trial; it’s global in scope.

Consider its purpose: It comes to test those who dwell on the earth. That phrase, “those who dwell on the earth” is used 9 times in 7 verses in Revelation. It refers to unbelievers who live on Earth during the horrific events of Chapters 6-19, a period of time called the Tribulation. The word “test” means to prove something by subjecting it to stresses that will reveal its true nature.

That’s what the Underwriter’s Laboratories do to products they test. They subject them to all kinds of challenging stresses to see what becomes of them. They drop, sink, burn, electrocute, freeze and boil them. They subject every product to whatever kind of trauma they may encounter in the real world. If it still works after all the tests, the product gets the coveted UL stamp of approval. The point of every test is to reveal the true nature of what’s being tested. The purpose of the Tribulation is to prove what’s really in the heart of sinful man. God pours out His wrath on Earth and the result is that the earth dwellers, instead of repenting, become even more bold and brazen in their rebellion. The Tribulation proves that what keeps people from coming to faith in God is not a lack of evidence but a willful heart of unbelief.

Jesus spoke this word to the Church at Philadelphia in ancient Asia Minor. What He says here at special application to them in that day. But it also carries significance to us today. Each of the seven letters of Chapters 2 & 3 end with the exhortation –
Let Him who has an ear, hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

The promise Jesus made to the historic church of Philadelphia continues on and finds an even more significant fulfillment for the church in the last days.

This promise is for the faithful followers of Jesus today. God will take us out of the Earth before He pours out His wrath in the Tribulation.

http://raptureimminent.wordpress.com/

Dear ColonelZ ,Please watch this Video After the Tribulation and then give me your opinion.
Sincerely Dr Rita

http://www.faithfulwordbaptist.org/index.html

Unfortunately, the most quoted passage of scripture that is used to "prove" the doctrine of imminence....is NOT talking about the rapture.

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."-Matthew 24:36
That is the most quoted passage to "prove" the doctrine of imminence. However, the passage doesn't even MENTION the rapture.

Read the entire chapter, all the way through....nowhere....NOWHERE in the passage is the rapture mentioned. Instead, Jesus told us to watch for SIGNS of His coming....and He gave us a specific order of events that mirror the seal judgments...all the way through the abomination of desolation.

Personally, i'm a mid-tribber....which in my view is actually "pre-trib"....because the tribulation is only 3 1/2 years. There is no 7 year tribulation. There is a 7 year final week of prophecy....but the first 3 1/2 years are NOT the tribulation. Other than Daniel 9....which is the prophecy of the weeks...where do we see a 7 year timeline at all? The prophecy of the weeks doesn't even use the word tribulation. It just says the AC will break the covenant in the midst of the week. Daniel 12 tells us the tribulation is 3 1/2 years...and the rapture language is used at the beginning of the last 3 1/2 years. I see it over and over.

I would agree with you onlyoneimage. I would like to add a few thoughts for consideration. First addressing an imminent rapture. This is refuted by the Apostle Paul "1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in the Messiah shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: the Messiah the firstfruits; afterward they that are the Messiah's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to Elohim, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

There are many others who can be found exposing the arguments and errors that extend from the dispensationalist view as promulgated by John Darby.

But, I would like to more closely look at the verses that are construed to speak of this "7 year" covenant or treaty as some call it as well. Again, I agree with the last sentiment above regarding the second half of the last "seven" remaining.

Daniel 9:24-27

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 9:24 - Lays out the whole plan from then until completion

"Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. "

Daniel 9:25 - Tells us perfectly that from the command made by the king of Babylon to rebuild was the number of days until the messiah.

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Dan 9:26 - Like Daniel 9:24 is the whole picture of the last "week"

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Dan 9:27 - Tells us again about that last week.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Do you see the wool that has been pulled over the believers eyes? This whole chapter is about the Messiah and His coming and His confirming of the covenant that is fulfillment of the OT prophecies and Law

I the phrase " And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week" it is speaking of CHRIST not ANTI-CHRIST. Confirm is the same word as strengthen. Christ will strengthen the covenant of Elohim. Confirm THE PROMISES MADE TO THEM / US.

He (Yeshua) caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease by being that which they spoke of in the law and prophets. He then does not allow the temple to remain because of what? "and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. "

Brothers and Sisters we have got to start reading the scriptures without the commentaries. This is Daniel. A revelation of the coming messiah and what HE was going to do and in fact did. It is not about the AC and some manufactured covenant that he is suppose to create.

If you can stomach one more reading of this topic. Please read for yourself what I have said and tell me this doesn't make more sense.

There is only one period of every year that the messiah could come back and that is what has been nick-named the Feast of Trumpets in the Fall. Our messiah fulfilled the spring feasts on the very days of the spring feasts in which they were to be observed. Why on earth (no pun intended) would He suddenly go off script and have a sudden appearing that nobody can be ready for? I could go on, but I will rest here.

onlyoneimage wrote:

Personally, i'm a mid-tribber....which in my view is actually "pre-trib"....because the tribulation is only 3 1/2 years. There is no 7 year tribulation. There is a 7 year final week of prophecy....but the first 3 1/2 years are NOT the tribulation. .

I think I would call that "pre-wrath", and in that we would be in agreement.

So, Onlyoneimage, I've been meaning to ask you: did this change of heart come on you all of a sudden one day or did it kind of creep up on you over time? Either way, good news! God bless and I hope to hear more.

I believe in a post-trib... which is the same as pre-wrath. Post-trib means the 1st Resurrection and Rapture happen at the end of the 3 1/2 yrs of Great Trib, then the Wrath (7 Vials) comes.

The "Day of the Lord" will be fulfilled in the Fall Feasts or "appointed times with God", this is the timeline:

Feast of Trumpets (Yom Teruah)... 1st Resurrection and Rapture. Saints are beamed up by angels to the sky to meet with Jesus Christ.

Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur)... Jesus and the saints touched down on Mt.of Olives to take over the World.

The period of 10 days between these 2 Feasts is when the 7 Vials/Bowls of God's Wrath are poured out.

5 days later at Full Moon is the...

Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkot)... Victorious Celebrations... when we walk into the Kingdom of God here on earth that will last for 1000 years! The eternal saints will rule every nation, every city, as kings and priests. (Rev. 1:6; Rev. 5:10)

well, nancy, i believe hitler was the rider on the white horse, starting the birth pangs, that goof, for all his effort Israel is born, scripture tells us damascus will be a heap, before gog/magog that starts the tribulation, which if we do what is commanded...

lk21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

we are taken pretrib to the city of GOD to be joined spiritually to our GOD forever...

rev7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.


you can argue w/ me all you want, people who dont take the word litterally, drive me insane, figuratively i mean

Jem,

Well it's funny actually. The more I studied the pre-trib view...and found different scriptures in even the old testament to "support" such a view...the more I realized I was reading into those passages what I was taught. Something of course that i'm always very quick to tell people NOT to do. Isaiah 27 for example, which is a great passage featuring the hiding of God's people...and includes rapture language. This passage DEFINITELY shows God's love and mercy for His people....but it does NOT tell us the timing of the event in relation to the tribulation. Only that there will come a time when the dead are caught up, and the alive in Christ shall be hidden(in His chambers). You have to ASSUME that it is saying it will occur at a certain time.

It really crept up on me....but the more I studied and realized i'd been going against my own advice theologically....the more I realized it was time to set aside my pre-conceived notions and embrace the strict scriptural truth. It was hard to swallow...but I believe the mid-trib/pre-wrath position to be the correct one. At the same time....I think this is still a slightly veiled subject...but I definitely don't agree with the doctrine of imminency. Let me illustrate.

Dad goes to work, but before he goes to work...he tells you that when he gets home he is taking you out for ice cream. Dad usually comes home about 5pm, but sometimes he is a little late. He told you to be sure and be ready for his coming because he was taking everyone out for ice cream....but only those who were ready would get ice cream(even though everyone gets to go). Do you know about when he's coming? Yes. Do you know the exact time? No. Does this mean you should expect him to come at 9AM? Of course not...because he doesn't get off of work until closer to 5pm.

I know, weird illustration. I think a lot of people have parts of this right...and then they have parts that are wrong. What we need to do is study and be ready no matter what. Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.

Proud of you Onlyoneimage! This is very impressive and humbling to witness.

Dr. Rita wrote:

Proud of you Onlyoneimage! This is very impressive and humbling to witness.

I'm proud of you too, onlyoneimage. I was once pre also and I took the same approach as you did. It was hard going but I'm glad that I did it. I may not have everything all figured out, boxed, wrapped with pretty paper and tied with a bow, but with diligent study I do believe that I've cut out a bunch of misconceptions and errors that I once believed.

so if you are not pretrib, you are not looking for His coming but His wrath, you Will find what you are looking for, its all good...

Actually, if one takes the time to read what the early church actually had to say about the subject - none of them taught a pre-trib rapture. They believed the church would go through the great tribulation. I can provide some quotes later.

Murray said,

Quote :

so if you are not pretrib, you are not looking for His coming but His wrath, you Will find what you are looking for, its all good...

That's the best answer. The time for trying to bring people over seems over.
They won't be moved. So, that must be okay. Part of God's Plan.
It does still blow me away though, when the answer is so evident in
the Word.
Everyone uses the scripture to debate when the door will be opened
and shut, but never find the key and 'enter in'.
Once you're in, you're IN.
Whether 'here' or 'there' matters not.
I do hope it's the Will of God, and not just the failings of men's minds.

Anyway...where does the Word say WE order our steps. WE know the
day our soul will be required....at any point in history.
The wise pray to be ready, and seek to be found worthy every day.
JUST IN CASE....we didn't know it all, after all.

murray leslie wrote:

so if you are not pretrib, you are not looking for His coming but His wrath, you Will find what you are looking for, its all good...

We've been over this again and again. The great tribulation is the wrath of Satan. We'll be here for that. We will be taken out (the rapture) BEFORE the wrath of God. And you can bet your bottom dollar that we are looking for His glorious coming, Murray and Dove!

See how y'all conveniently forget what you didn't want to hear in the first place and start twisting things around. Now try not to forget what I just said next time you are tempted to write that we are not looking for Yeshua's return or that we are somehow trying to steal your joy. You're embarrasing yourselves.

Reason Number 13 For Why We Believe In PreTribulation Rapture – The Rapture Is Imminent!
Posted on April 26, 2013




The apostles and the early Church all believed in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. We know that because they believed Jesus could come at any moment, yet they knew they weren’t in the Tribulation.

We find the expectation of Jesus’ coming all over the letters of Peter, Paul, and John. The writings of the earliest of the church fathers carry a strong expectation of the Lord’s coming for the Church. This simply isn’t what we would find if they believed in a mid- or post-tribulation rapture.



++++++++++++++++++

What did the early church really believe about the Tribulation and Rapture? In their own words... (Whenever someone says "this is what they believed, but does not provide quotes - question it...)

Hippolytus



…This thing, then, the prophet has adopted as a simile, applying it in a similar manner to Antichrist. For he will allure mankind to himself, wishing to gain possession of those who are not his own, and promising deliverance to all, while he is unable to save himself.

He then, having gathered to himself the unbelieving everywhere throughout the world, comes at their call to persecute the saints, their enemies and antagonists…

… And he, being puffed up with pride by their subserviency, will begin to despatch missives against the saints, commanding to cut them all off everywhere, on the ground of their refusal to reverence and worship him as God…
…But we who hope for the Son of God are persecuted and trodden down by those unbelievers. For the wings of the vessels are the churches; and the sea is the world, in which the Church is set, like a ship tossed in the deep, but not destroyed; for she has with her the skilled Pilot, Christ. And she bears in her midst also the trophy (which is erected) over death; for she carries with her the cross of the Lord…

… Now, concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary, John also speaks thus: “And I saw a great and wondrous sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars… By the woman then clothed with the sun,” he meant most manifestly the Church… where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.” That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks concealment in the wilderness among the mountains, possessed of no other defence than the two wings of the great eagle, that is to say, the faith of Jesus Christ…”





Irenaeus “Against Heresies – Book V, Chapter 29



…And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.

And there is therefore in this beast, when he comes, a recapitulation made of all sorts of iniquity and of every deceit, in order that all apostate power, flowing into and being shut up in him, may be sent into the furnace of fire. Fittingly, therefore, shall his name possess the number six hundred and sixty-six, since he sums up in his own person all the commixture of wickedness which took place previous to the deluge, due to the apostasy of the angels. For Noah was six hundred years old when the deluge came upon the earth, sweeping away the rebellious world, for the sake of that most infamous generation which lived in the times of Noah. And [Antichrist] also sums up every error of devised idols since the flood, together with the slaying of the prophets and the cutting off of the just. For that image which was set up by Nebuchadnezzar had indeed a height of sixty cubits, while the breadth was six cubits; on account of which Ananias, Azarias, and Misaël, when they did not worship it, were cast into a furnace of fire, pointing out prophetically, by what happened to them, the wrath against the righteous which shall arise towards the [time of the] end. For that image, taken as a whole, was a prefiguring of this man’s coming, decreeing that he should undoubtedly himself alone be worshipped by all men. Thus, then, the six hundred years of Noah, in whose time the deluge occurred because of the apostasy, and the number of the cubits of the image for which these just men were sent into the fiery furnace, do indicate the number of the name of that man in whom is concentrated the whole apostasy of six thousand years…



Excerpted from Cyprian’s Treatise IX – On The Advantage of Patience

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf05.iv.v.ix.html





since I know, beloved brethren, that very many are eager, either on account of the burden or the pain of smarting wrongs, to be quickly avenged of those who act harshly and rage against them, we must not withhold the fact in the furthest particular, that placed as we are in the midst of these storms of a jarring world, and, moreover, the persecutions both of Jews or Gentiles, and heretics, we may patiently wait for the day of (God’s) vengeance, and not hurry to revenge our suffering with a querulous haste, since it is written, “Wait ye upon me, saith the Lord, in the day of my rising up for a testimony; for my judgment is to the congregations of the nations, that I may take hold on the kings, and pour out upon them my fury.” The Lord commands us to wait, and to bear with brave patience the day of future vengeance…



…But when shall come the divine vengeance for the righteous blood, the Holy Spirit declares by Malachi the prophet, saying, “Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, burning as an oven; and all the aliens and all the wicked shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord.” this we read also in the Psalms, where the approach of God the Judge is announced as worthy to be reverenced for the majesty of His judgment: “God shall come manifest, our God, and shall not keep silence; a fire shall burn before Him, and round about Him a great tempest. He shall call the heaven above, and the earth beneath, that He may separate His people. Gather His saints together unto Him, who establish His covenant in sacrifices; and the heavens shall declare His righteousness, for God is the Judge.” And Isaiah foretells the same things, saying: “For, behold, the Lord shall come like a fire, and His chariot as a storm, to render vengeance in anger; for in the fire of the Lord they shall be judged, and with His sword shall they be wounded.”



…Let us wait for Him, beloved brethren, our Judge and Avenger, who shall equally avenge with Himself the congregation of His Church, and the number of all the righteous from the beginning of the world. Let him who hurries, and is too impatient for his revenge, consider that even He Himself is not yet avenged who is the Avenger. God the Father ordained His Son to be adored; and the Apostle Paul, mindful of the divine command, lays it down, and says: “God hath exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things heavenly, and things earthly, and things beneath.” And in the Apocalypse the angel withstands John, who wishes to worship him, and says: “See thou do it not; for I am thy fellow-servant, and of thy brethren. Worship Jesus the Lord.” How great is the Lord Jesus, and how great is His patience, that He who is adored in heaven is not yet avenged on earth! Let us, beloved brethren, consider His patience in our persecutions and sufferings; let us give an obedience full of expectation to His advent; and let us not hasten, servants as we are, to be defended before our Lord with irreligious and immodest eagerness. Let us rather press onward and labour, and, watching with our whole heart, and stedfast to all endurance, let us keep the Lord’s precepts; so that when that day of anger and vengeance shall come, we may not be punished with the impious and sinners, but may be honoured with the righteous and those that fear God.



Shepherd of Hermas – Book First, Vision Second

Excerpted from:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.ii.ii.ii.html



“For after you have made known to them these words which my Lord has commanded me to reveal to you, then shall they be forgiven all the sins which in former times they committed, and forgiveness will be granted to all the saints who have sinned even to the present day, if they repent with all their heart, and drive all doubts from their minds. For the Lord has sworn by His glory, in regard to His elect, that if any one of them sin after a certain day which has been fixed, he shall not be saved. For the repentance of the righteous has limits. Filled up are the days of repentance to all the saints; but to the heathen, repentance will be possible even to the last day. You will tell, therefore, those who preside over the Church, to direct their ways in righteousness, that they may receive in full the promises with great glory. Stand stedfast, therefore, ye who work righteousness, and doubt not, may be with the holy angels. Happy ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on, and happy they who shall not deny their own life. For the Lord hath sworn by His Son, that those who denied their Lord have abandoned their life in despair, for even now these are to deny Him in the days that are coming.”



Great words for the church that is truly in the last days…



Excerpted from Didache, chapter 7



http://reluctant-messenger.com/didache.htm

Be vigilant on behalf of your life. Do not let your lamps be extinguished, and do not relax your loins. But become prepared. For you do not know the hour in which our Lord is coming. Now you will gather together often, seeking the things that are appropriate for your souls. For all the time of your trust will not profit you, if you do not become complete in the last season.

For in the last days, the false prophets and the corruptors will be multiplied, and the sheep will be turned into wolves, and love will be turned into hate. For when the lawlessness increases, they will hate one another, and they will persecute and deliver up, and then the deceiver of creation will appear as God's son, and he will do signs and wonders. And the land will be given up into his hands. And he will do lawless things which have never been done from the age.

Then human creation will come into the fire of examination, and many will stumble and be destroyed. But those who endure in their trust will be saved from this accursed thing. And then the signs of truth will appear. First, the sign of an opening in Heaven, then the sign of a trumpet's sound, and thirdly, a resurrection of dead people. But not of all people; on the contrary, as it was declared, "The Lord will come, and all the holy ones with him." Then creation will see the Lord "coming on the clouds of the sky."

Excerpted from:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf07.ix.viii.ii.html

Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, Book 7, section 2, chapters 31-32



“Watch therefore, and pray, that ye do not sleep unto death. For your former good deeds will not profit you, if at the last part of your life you go astray from the true faith.



For in the last days false prophets shall be multiplied, and such as corrupt the word; and the sheep shall be changed into wolves, and love into hatred: for through the abounding of iniquity the love of many shall wax cold. For men shall hate, and persecute, and betray one another. And then shall appear the deceiver of the world, the enemy of the truth, the prince of lies, whom the Lord Jesus “shall destroy with the spirit of His mouth, who takes away the wicked with His lips; and many shall be offended at Him. But they that endure to the end, the same shall be saved. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven;” and afterwards shall be the voice of a trumpet by the archangel; and in that interval shall be the revival of those that were asleep. And then shall the Lord come, and all His saints with Him

dovie, your right, but to wake up in the judgment would have to be about 1/2 past suck...

LUKE 21: 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 25 ¶ And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. 29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; 30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. 31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

First, let's be clear....anyone studying this subject who is a Christian is probably looking forward to his return. I mean....why would you waste time on it if you weren't looking forward to it?

Second, it is important to note some major differences in all of this. It is assumed by the pre-tribbers...that the wrath of God is occurring through the entire final week of bible prophecy. However, it is important to note that the book of revelation tells us the specific event that begins the wrath of God.

Revelation 6:12-17
"
¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

The sixth seal begins the wrath of the lamb. So any event that occurs before the sixth seal is NOT the wrath of God...but the unbridled wrath of Satan, the wickedness of man, and the uninhibited corruption of sin upon this world. Now the only problem is...where does the sixth seal fit chronologically?
Some say it occurs before any of the trumpets and vials(bowls)...some say it occurs about the time of the 7th trumpet and right before the 7th vial etc. There are so many possible answers. What I see as the clues though...are the specific events mentioned. I think it seems logical that this event occurs concurrently with the events of the 7th trumpet and 7th seal....and that these events precede the wrath of God...and begin the wrath of God. I'm not saying that is definite...but it is possible.

The biggest flaw in the pre-trib position is not one of positional safety from God's wrath....it is one of timing. The pre-trib position supposes that God will keep his people safe during that time. This seems to be correct....the "flaw" and I use that term in the sense that it is only a possible flaw and not a realized flaw....is that the entire 7 years/final week of prophecy...is the tribulation. The bible Is clear that the tribulation itself is only 3 1/2 years. God's wrath isn't poured out until the second half(IMO)....so we should likely be here for that. Plus, the 2 witnesses from my viewpoint go up at the halfway mark....and that is an event which every eye will see....so much makes sense for it to be at that moment. Still...very hard to understand. Anyone who pretends to have all of the answers is ignoring the command of God to study to show thyself approved...and to use the scriptures for doctrine, proof, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness etc. If we settle a matter...and do not continue to find the reproof or the correction etc. then we will forever lose ourselves in unsound doctrine.

It is important to understand that the only core difference between the pre-trib position and the pre-wrath/mid-trib position....is the doctrine of imminence. Aside from that, they have the same core principle.

i dont fit in w/ traditional pretrib, cause they believe the "come up hither" is the rapture which is nonsense but clearly we are gone just prior to the sixth seal opening & seen in Heaven here...

rev7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

these people are the believers, new & old test from abe., to this point, we stand before God & the Lamb, in our home the city of God, after this are the 1st resurrection, the trib saints...


rev20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

after this is the white throne..chronological & in order just like His word sez...oh ya, imminence i dont find, but a day appointed, that God only knows, so...

mark13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch...