SHOULD CHRISTIANS GIVE UP THEIR GUNS?

SHOULD CHRISTIANS GIVE UP THEIR GUNS?



By Chuck Baldwin
May 2, 2013
NewsWithViews.com

Not since 1775 has a central government in America attempted to disarm its citizens in the way that President Barack Obama and Senator Dianne Feinstein did recently. King George III attempted to disarm the colonists on April 19, 1775, and that attempt ignited America’s War for Independence. Leading the charge to resist the banning and confiscation of their firearms were colonial pastors such as Jonas Clark. Back then, America’s pastors had a thorough comprehension of the Biblical principles of liberty, including the right to keep and bear arms. They taught their congregations these sacred principles with such zeal and persuasion that the attempt by those British troops to march on Lexington and Concord and seize the colonists’ guns was met with the now famous “shot heard ’round the world.” Ever since that historic event, the people’s right to bear arms has been held sacred by the vast majority of Americans--Christian or otherwise. The right to bear arms was understood to be, not just a right, but a God-ordained duty, a long time before it was ever enshrined in the Second Amendment to the US Constitution.

The recent attempt by Barack Obama and Dianne Feinstein to ban semi-automatic rifles, limit magazine capacity, and create universal background checks and gun registration was as close to what old King George attempted to do as this nation has ever seen. Fortunately, public outcry against this egregious gun grab was so unmistakably loud and clear that these gun control bills failed to pass even the Democrat-controlled Senate. Thank God for every person and group around the country that rose up to defeat this piece of modern-day tyranny.

However, if you think that Obama and Feinstein are going to abandon their attempt to outlaw and confiscate your guns, you are sadly mistaken. They will not stop. But the good news is neither will we!

Liberty lovers spoke with their petitions to Congress and with their pocketbooks at gun shops. The backlog for firearms stands at over two million, according to recent reports. Some ten million guns flew off the shelves in the first couple weeks after the proposed gun ban was announced. Ammunition is in such short supply that even .22LR cartridges are as scarce as hen’s teeth. Does anyone believe that the American people are spending all of this money purchasing all of these guns and all of this ammo with the intention that they will turn around a few months later and surrender them to the federal government? HECK NO!

One good thing that the attempted gun ban by Obama and Feinstein accomplished was to alarm and awaken millions of Americans who previously thought, “It can’t happen here.” They thought this issue was settled back in 1775 and 1776. Now they realize that every generation of Americans has to settle this issue for themselves. I don’t think these Americans will fall asleep again on this issue in the foreseeable future.

The one glaring weakness of this modern march on Concord was the lack of pastoral leadership. In short, THERE WASN’T ANY! The vast majority of America’s Christian pastors were absolutely silent. There are simply far too few Jonas Clarks today. In 1775, the vast majority of America’s pastors were outspoken proponents of the right of Christians to resist the tyrant’s attempt to take away their guns, whereas, today, the vast majority of America’s pastors are both utterly passive and indifferent to the threat or are actually complicit with and supportive of the threat.

As a result of this lack of principled leadership from the pulpit, Christians in general seem to share the passiveness and indifference of their pastors. Christians throughout America seem to believe that it somehow honors God to allow the divine right of self-defense to be yanked away from them. They foolishly believe that they have a Christian duty to turn in their guns should the government tell them to do so. The spirit of Jonas Clark and the Minutemen of 1775 was the spirit of Christian resistance. Sadly, this spirit is lacking in the hearts of most of today’s pastors and churchmen. This is the most glaring difference between the attempted gun grab of King George and the attempted gun grab of Barack Obama. Yes, we defeated the Obama/Feinstein gun grab for now, but with very little help from our pastors and churches.

more

http://newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin751.htm

There is a very good reason why we do not see the Christian leaders of the early church teaching people that they should arm themselves against the dangerous Roman leadership.

Who cares about Jonas Clark? Go to Polycarp, Ignatius and Justin.

Baldwin speaks of the Bible, but not in the Spirit of what it teaches us as Christians.

Nonsense!

So all those men and women who faught WWI and WWII faught in vain, I take it?

You are asking the wrong question.


The question at hand is - is it Biblical (is it appropriate for one who professes Christ as Savior) to take up and use arms/weapons against those who would oppress/harm them?

The answer is - no, it is not.

This is proved by the Scriptures, and by the examples of Christ, his apostles, and the early church.

God gave us the right to protect one self!
Does he not say in scripture to protect the elderly and the weak?
Laws to judge you regarding those who would invade your house either by night or by day? The differences?

It is not the gun that kills, it is the man or woman that holds it.
Gods law says thou shalt not Murder!
God says to rid your communities of Murderers, put them to death.
That is what governs Guns, a Law that tries you and puts you to death if found guilty!
You don't need more laws.
You don't need to amend 1,000 other trivial laws.

You all have been programmed to be afraid of the very tools used to make you free and keep you free!
Now you are all dependant on those who control you and say that they will protect you, but lie and steal from you and will kill you with the same weapon.

When I was a military active duty captain Medical Corps , I was arrested twice , by the CID, ( undercover military police) for refusing to obey orders to abuse and degrade by patients. The second time I was arrested as a Captain MD was for refusing to sleep in the same tent with other Captains, Majors, Lt.Cols. who showed me their privates for taunts and intimidation. So it will not be a problem for me to resist sin/the devil/ evil should it try the third time. So I stay armed always, first with the Sword of His Word , and secondly I am trained in both the removal of lead and how to dispose it as well.

That is why after 16 years R.A. appointment I resigned and walked away from any military pay or bonus . I am free in Christ Jesus and His pay and Retirement is worth it .
( by the way this all occurred in 1982 , that's how bad it was even then )

We should protect ourselves whether we are in the military or not...doesn't make a difference......we should not shoot anyone for just taunts or words....ofcourse but any harm to family and friends

All citizens should have guns to protect from gov if it falls too

Unworthy1 wrote:

You are asking the wrong question.


The question at hand is - is it Biblical (is it appropriate for one who professes Christ as Savior) to take up and use arms/weapons against those who would oppress/harm them?

The answer is - no, it is not.

This is proved by the Scriptures, and by the examples of Christ, his apostles, and the early church.

Greetings to all. I'm a long time lurker, and first time poster. As a strong advocate of self defence, I couldn't let this one go by.

I hope this doesn't come across as wrong. It's meant in the kindest manner possible.

Unworthyone, yours is a position believed by many but, it is my opinion based on significant research (both my own and others) that this position is wholly incorrect. Two main scriptures that are used to support your position are Matthew 5:38-42 and Matthew 26:52. A slap on the cheek, in Jesus day, was nothing more then an insult. The idea of turning the other cheek merely refers to how to respond to an insult. Way too many scholars try to make a case that Jesus was saying something along the lines of "If someone stabs you in the left leg, let him stab you through the chest also." He was just saying to ignore insults, as they are rather pointless.

In Matthew 26:52 Jesus is rebuking Peter "But Jesus said to him, 'Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword". In the context Peter had just cut off the ear of Malchus, a servant of the high priest. A man who was a member of a pretty good sized mob of troops and angry men with clubs and swords. They were in the process of arresting Jesus. This is a position Jesus had been in before and he always managed to escape if he needed to. The disciples knew this. The mob was large enough that if Peter had persisted he would have wound up dead. Jesus was telling Peter not to use the sword for offensive purposes.

Jesus did approve of using a sword for defensive purposes however. He told his disciples in Luke 22:36-38 to sell their garments and buy a sword. Why would he tell them to appropriate a sword if it wasn't for self defense?

All throughout the scriptures, self defense, and defense of ones home is very Biblical.

Abraham killed men when he rescued Lot (Genesis. 14).

Samuel hacked Agag to pieces (1 Samuel. 15).

Elijah executed the prophets of Baal (1 Kings. 18).

And there is a lot more.

God doesn't change, nothing changed in regards to self defense in the New Testament. There many good articles and studies on the Biblical case for self defense.

A good start would a book titled "Shooting Back: The Right and Duty of Self Defense" By Charl Van Wyk. A search on Google will bring up many well written (and some badly written) studies on the subject.

Unworthyone, I'm not trying to be critical or anything, but please when you express a belief that appears to be very generalized., could you please back it up with some scriptures or proof text? Even a link to a decent study would be helpful. I say this not as a critic but as someone who likes to learn. If you have found something that leads you to this belief, and I am not aware of what you have found, I would like to know, so that I could also check it out. This way we can all learn from each others studies, whether we agree or disagree.

In Jesus
Dennis The Mennace

Dennis the Mennace is correct! Jesus absolutely told his men to go buy a sword, one that was illegal for a jew to posess at that time.

That was a good point Delfi, we over look that.
And I wonder why the Romans would make them illegal....
what has changed?

Delfi wrote:

Dennis the Mennace is correct! Jesus absolutely told his men to go buy a sword, one that was illegal for a jew to posess at that time.

Yeah that!!! It is my understanding that the sword Yeshua was referring to was the Roman Centurion's double edged short sword, the deadliest military type weapon available to an individual at that time. This sword was illegal to have unless you were a Centurion in service to Rome.

I wish I could remember my source for that information. I either read or heard a very good study on that very subject but I can't remember where. Probably something from Chuck Baldwin but I'm unsure about that.

You can not use Old Testament examples to support how we should live as New Testament Christians. The FACTS are: Jesus, Peter, Paul, every other apostle except John, and countless Christians over the first two to three centuries suffered death at the hands of wicked men rather than returned evil for evil. Did Peter have a sword - yes. Did Jesus allow him to take one? Yes, but what did Jesus do? He taught them all a lesson. He healed the man Peter struck, and told the apostles that was not the way. That those who lived by the sword would die by the sword (insert gun if you prefer). They learned the lesson, and they taught it to the church. You'd do well to follow their example.

Dennis the Mennace (interesting moniker)

Here is the link to a good study on the subject that you requested. I will be happy to provide some Scripture later. I'd like to see some from you as well if you don't mind, but again, Old Testament does not apply.

http://www.biblestudying.net/war1.html

The study has three sections with links at the top of the page.



Enjoy.

I know this is not Scripture, but it does prove what the early Christians believed about the subject, and they, of course, received what they taught from the apostles.

"And when the Spirit of prophecy speaks as predicting things that are to come to pass, He speaks in this way: “For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.” And that it did so come to pass, we can convince you. For from Jerusalem there went out into the world, men, twelve in number, and these illiterate, of no ability in speaking: but by the power of God they proclaimed to every race of men that they were sentby Christ to teach to all the word of God; and we who formerly used to murder one another do not only now refrain from making war upon our enemies, but also, that we may not lie nor deceive our examiners, willingly die confessing Christ. For that saying, “The tongue has sworn but the mind is unsworn,” But if the soldiers enrolled by you, and who have taken the military oath, prefer their allegiance to their own life, and parents, and country, and all kindred, though you can offer them nothing incorruptible, it were verily ridiculous if we, who earnestly long for incorruption, should not endure all things, in order to obtain what we desire from Him who is able to grant it."

Justin Martyr's - First Apology - Chapter 39

From Athenagoras' - A Plea for the Christians - Chapter 1
"...you [government officials] allow us to be harassed, plundered, and persecuted, the multitude making war upon us for our name alone. We venture, therefore, to lay a statement of our case before you—and you will learn from this discourse that we suffer unjustly, and contrary to all law and reason—and we beseech you to bestow some consideration upon us also, that we may cease at length to be slaughtered at the instigation of false accusers. For the fine imposed by our persecutors does not aim merely at our property, nor their insults at our reputation, nor the damage they do us at any other of our greater interests. These we hold in contempt, though to the generality they appear matters of great importance; for we have learned, not only not to return blow for blow, nor to go to law with those who plunder and rob us, but to those who smite us on one side of the face to offer the other side also, and to those who take away our coat to give likewise our cloak. But, when we have surrendered our property, they plot against our very bodies and souls..."
No Mr. Mennace, a slap on the cheek was not a mere insult. The church understood Jesus teachings to mean any offense whatsoever, including all physical violence.
And He provided the example by enduring the worst mankind has to offer, and He did not defend Himself, nor retaliate, though He was infinitely capable of it.

"...no new covenant was given, but they used the Mosaic law until the coming of the Lord; but from the Lord’s advent, the new covenant which brings back peace, and the law which gives life, has gone forth over the whole earth, as the prophets said: “For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem; and He shall rebuke many people; and they shall break down their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks, and they shall no longer learn to fight.” ...if the law of liberty, that is, the word of God, preached by the apostles (who went forth from Jerusalem) throughout all the earth, caused such a change in the state of things, that these [nations] did form the swords and war-lances into ploughshares, and changed them into pruning-hooks for reaping the corn, [that is], into instruments used for peaceful purposes, and that they are now unaccustomed to fighting, but when smitten, offer also the other cheek, then the prophets have not spoken these things of any other person, but of Him who effected them. This person is our Lord..."

From Irenaeus' - Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 34

"If we are enjoined, then, to love our enemies, as I have remarked above, whom have we to hate? If injured, we are forbidden to retaliate, lest we become as bad ourselves: who can suffer injury at our hands? In regard to this, recall your own experiences. How often you inflict gross cruelties on Christians, partly because it is your own inclination, and partly in obedience to the laws! How often, too, the hostile mob, paying no regard to you, takes the law into its own hand, and assails us with stones and flames! With the very frenzy of the Bacchanals, they do not even spare the Christian dead, but tear them, now sadly changed, no longer entire, from the rest of the tomb, from the asylum we might say of death, cutting them in pieces, rending them asunder. Yet, banded together as we are, ever so ready to sacrifice our lives, what single case of revenge for injury are you able to point to, though, if it were held right among us to repay evil by evil, a single night with a torch or two could achieve an ample vengeance? But away with the idea of a sect divine avenging itself by human fires, or shrinking from the sufferings in which it is tried."

From Tertullian's - Apology - Chapter 37

I think these sufficiently demonstrate what the church in the first two centuries or so believed... as I said, I'll follow up with Scripture soon.

Unworthy One,
.
I find it ironic that you disqualify the use of the Old Testament and then immediately unknowingly quote from it. If you exclude others from using the Old Testament, I think you should also abide by that rule.

Isaiah 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Isaiah 2:3-5 (in Context) Isaiah 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
Joel 3:10
Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
Joel 3:9-11 (in Context) Joel 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
Micah 4:3
And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Micah 4:2-4 (in Context) Micah 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

I may be wrong, but I believe these passages refer to the millennium reign of Christ.

Are those not also quoted in the New Testament? Indeed they are.

We have to understand that many of the Old Testament teachings are no longer applicable in the New. Some are. If they are supported/reitterated by the New Testament, then by all means, use them.

Here is the Scripture you requested...

"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you. "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. – Luke 6:27-36

Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. – Romans 12:17-21

Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. For, "Whoever would love life and see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from deceitful speech. He must turn from evil and do good; he must seek peace and pursue it. – 1 Peter 3:9-11

For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth." When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. – 1 Peter 2:19-25

34 You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. – Hebrews 10:34

Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for." Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear. "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. – Matthew 26:50-52

The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus…Jesus replied, "You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand." …For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean… When he had finished washing their feet… Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them. John 13:2, 7, 11, 12a, 15

Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm. The Lord will repay him for what he has done. – 2 Timothy 4:14

For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." … Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering. Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. – Hebrews 10:30, 32-34

Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. – 2 Timothy 2:22-24

The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture: "He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before the shearer is silent, so he did not open his mouth. In his humiliation he was deprived of justice. Who can speak of his descendants? For his life was taken from the earth…
When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, "Look, the Lamb of God!"…
"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me-just as the Father knows me and I know the Father-and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Acts 8:32-33, John 1:36, John 10:14-15

Question: Since Jesus is our example and we are sheep, how many sheep do you know of that take vengeance on the wolves?

Unworthy1 wrote:

You can not use Old Testament examples to support how we should live as New Testament Christians. The FACTS are: Jesus, Peter, Paul, every other apostle except John, and countless Christians over the first two to three centuries suffered death at the hands of wicked men rather than returned evil for evil. Did Peter have a sword - yes. Did Jesus allow him to take one? Yes, but what did Jesus do? He taught them all a lesson. He healed the man Peter struck, and told the apostles that was not the way. That those who lived by the sword would die by the sword (insert gun if you prefer). They learned the lesson, and they taught it to the church. You'd do well to follow their example.

You use that as a reason not to protect your family? Or do you switch out the gun for the popular golf club? Did Jesus ever tell us to not protect ourselves or our families? Would you give up all your bats and clubs too? Defenseless...... Good people and Christians being attacked and killed all over the world, Christians being silenced in this country and you want to give away the only protection you have...I will never understand it.

Its not a matter of vengeance, its protection! Do you realize what bad men do to women and little girls? I know!!! And like ive said before, sometimes Father doesn't intervene. Not even for little girls that call out to him...... If your families only protection is prayer, then I will also pray that they are safe until the Lord returns to take us.

Joseph Herrin on the subject.

Grab Your Gun Jesus

Gun Ownership and the Mind of Christ

Waco, Texas and The Weapons of Our Warfare

We are not talking about revenge or retribution. Those are not the same thing as self-defense.

Your prayers would be appreciated Delfi. To be honest, my natural inclination would be to crack an intruder upside the noggin with a baseball bat. That is what the natural man inside me wants to do. It is what the flesh tell us to do. "You want to harm me and mine... Wait til you see what I do to you."

I hope and pray that I will never be in that kind of situation. If I ever am, I hope and pray that I do what I know the LORD wants his people to do. There are more options than fight or stand passively and watch.

The other thing to consider is that this life is not all there is, and this life is a test. Scripture says that "he who wants to keep his life in this world will lose it, but he who loses his life for my sake will find it."

The early Christians willingly gave up their lives in this world, to receive that life which is truly life.

I hope we are all counted among them some day.

Peace!

Well Kitiara, you will have to show where the New Testament distinguishes between the two, and where it actively permits/promotes self defense, and then explain why the apostles NEVER used self-defense after Peter's sword incident, and why the early church did not believe in returning violence for violence.

Matthew 5

3“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
⁴ Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.
⁵ Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the earth.
⁶ Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.
⁷ Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.
⁸ Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.
⁹ Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.
¹⁰ Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

¹¹ “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. ¹² Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you…

³⁸ “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’³⁹ But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also…

⁴³ “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighborand hate your enemy.’ ⁴⁴ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, ⁴⁵ that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. ⁴⁶ For if you love those who love you, what reward have you?



Romans 8

¹⁶ The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, ¹⁷ and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

¹⁸ For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Philippians 1

²⁷ Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel, ²⁸ and not in any way terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but to you of salvation,and that from God. ²⁹ For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake…



2 Thessalonians 1

³ We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, ⁴ so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, ⁵ which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; ⁶ since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, ⁷ and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, ⁸ in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. ⁹ These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, ¹⁰ when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe…

1 Peter 2

¹⁹ For this is commendable, if because of conscience toward God one endures grief, suffering wrongfully. ²⁰ For what credit is it if, when you are beaten for your faults, you take it patiently? But when you do good and suffer, if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God. ²¹ For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:

²² “Who committed no sin,
Nor was deceit found in His mouth”;

²³ who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously…

Revelation 2:9

¹⁰ Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

+++++++++++++++++++++++

Notice Jesus simply says to “love your enemies”. He does not specify or make any distinctions whatsoever. We do not get to pick and choose what kind of enemies we are supposed to love, and which we are not (or worse yet, which we can shoot or pummel in self-defense). You don’t shoot someone out of love for them.

Also, notice that the Scriptures repeatedly tell us that we must and will suffer for the sake of Christ. Again, Scripture does not differentiate between the things we have to suffer, or more importantly what we will not have to suffer. We don’t get to tell GOD “OK, I’ll suffer this toothache, or someone calling me names, but I will not suffer being attacked by some ungodly individual. Do we think that GOD is somehow unaware of the things that are happening to us?

I'm with unworthy1's views all the way on this.

The ways of the world are indeed horrific. But
that's no excuse to disobey. Either Jesus is Lord
over my life or He's not.
I personally don't get away with trying to do much
of anything in my own strength any more. And I
probably never did. It's just that now I'm aware of it.

Living and dying are in God's Hands alone. The quickest
way to peace is acceptance of and trust in that.

Fear not those who can kill the flesh...only that which can
kill the spirit.

And if you can hear and believe me, if you call on Him,
and give yourself over to Him, taking no other thought;
just letting go, He WILL take you from your body before
you know or experience anything of death.

You have to know that the Holy Spirit of God stands within you.
He is The Authority sent by God over all who are washed by
the blood and born again of the Spirit.
Would you not trust Him and yield to Him?
Anyone who would come against you or one that you love,
comes against HIM.
We need to be that aware of His Presence and that yielded to Him
even right now.

God Bless the subject that brings Dove and Unworthy1 together.

Delfi wrote:

God Bless the subject that brings Dove and Unworthy1 together.

The Spirit and the Word~the double-edged sword in action!

That's cute researcher. I'm curious though, does not protecting your family only end at home? If someone was raping a child at school, would you just take her out and not persecute the perpetrator? Leave all justice up to Father at the last day? leave her in and pray it didn't happen again? When do Christians stop trying to protect their own? Vengeance is mine say Father but he doesn't say let evil people kill your family at will.

There's no way I could sit idly by and watch/witness an evil action or allow evil to have its way. I'd rather be scolded in Heaven for doing something about it then for not.

Delfi wrote:

That's cute researcher. I'm curious though, does not protecting your family only end at home? If someone was raping a child at school, would you just take her out and not persecute the perpetrator? Leave all justice up to Father at the last day? leave her in and pray it didn't happen again? When do Christians stop trying to protect their own? Vengeance is mine say Father but he doesn't say let evil people kill your family at will.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm with defending and protecting ones friends, family, or anyone else that is being mistreated and I advocate using deadly force as a last measure if that's what it takes. I'll make this very clear, you can either have a weapon for defense or you can try to carry a policeman around on your shoulders 24/7 for protection. And isn't there a passage in scripture claiming something about a man who doesn't protect his family is unworthy? Yes, I do believer there are several. Might want to have a look-see at the link I'm giving. I'll quote part of the introduction here so that you can get a flavor of what's in the link.

http://www.biblicalselfdefense.com/

Quote :

The Biblical View of Self-Defense
Introduction

This study examines the Biblical view of self-defense. We're looking at questions such as, Is it right to employ lethal force to protect the life of yourself and others? Is it right to take measures that might kill an attacker who is wrongfully threatening your life or the life of another?

Self-defense here is defined as "protecting oneself from injury at the hand of others." Self-defense is not about taking vengeance. Self-defense is not about punishing criminals. Self-defense involves preserving one's own health and life when it is threatened by the actions of others. When we speak about using potentially lethal force in self-defense, we're talking about using weapons to protect ourselves and others, even if the weapons used could kill the attacker.

Luke 12: 11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:

12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.
~~~~~~

16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.

19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
~~~~
Hard, harsh words.

I checked the website, Researcher, and I don't think he's using scripture
appropriately.
We know we have to look at what the passage is referring to, (context) and who is speaking to whom. and not just take one verse and give it a new application just to suit a point. And I'm afraid that's exactly what he's done.

This issue looks like one we should pray worthy to escape.
We'd be better off with a plague than with this. (tongue slightly in cheek)

Researcher, my friend. The verse you referenced is in it's context below.

1 Timothy 5

5 Do not rebuke an older man, but exhort him as a father, younger men as brothers, ² older women as mothers, younger women as sisters, with all purity.

Honor True Widows


³ Honor widows who are really widows. ⁴ But if any widow has children or grandchildren, let them first learn to show piety at home and to repay their parents; for this is good and acceptable before God. ⁵ Now she who is really a widow, and left alone, trusts in God and continues in supplications and prayers night and day. ⁶ But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives. ⁷ And these things command, that they may be blameless. ⁸ But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

⁹ Do not let a widow under sixty years old be taken into the number, and not unless she has been the wife of one man, ¹⁰ well reported for good works: if she has brought up children, if she has lodged strangers, if she has washed the saints’ feet, if she has relieved the afflicted, if she has diligently followed every good work.

¹¹ But refuse the younger widows; for when they have begun to grow wanton against Christ, they desire to marry, ¹² having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith. ¹³ And besides they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house, and not only idle but also gossips and busybodies, saying things which they ought not. ¹⁴ Therefore I desire that the younger widows marry, bear children, manage the house, give no opportunity to the adversary to speak reproachfully. ¹⁵ For some have already turned aside after Satan. ¹⁶ If any believing man or woman has widows, let them relieve them, and do not let the church be burdened, that it may relieve those who are really widows.

+++++++++++++++++++++

Definitely not teaching that it is acceptable to use violence against one's enemy.

Just a quick "chime-in" if no one minds.

Just recently I have read two different articles on women rebuking someone in the Name of Jesus and them going away. First was a woman being robbed in a store that she owned, and she rebuked the thief in the Name of Jesus and he ran out the door.

The second one I just read yesterday about a woman holding a jewelry party at her home and a man just showed up and came in and stood in the middle of the women and demanded their jewelry, purses, etc. That woman also rebuked him in the Name of Jesus and the article says he was looking over her head back and forth and something no one else could see, then he ran out.

I'm sure we would all agree that he was seeing big ol' angels ready to cut him to pieces and he left.

SO, all that to say, why can't we use the Name of Jesus in all circumstances? Do we REALLY believe that Jesus is our protector or don't we? I'm not saying I'm against guns at all. I don't know enough about them really - I don't even own one and I have debated whether I should get one and learn how to shoot - but then the thought of killing someone and sending them straight to hell is too disturbing to me.

No, I certainly would not want someone to hurt my loved ones and would want to protect them, but I know that God is able to do that through the power of His Name.

I don't think anyone should have to give up their guns though - it is our right to bear arms and if someone is comfortable using a gun for protection, then I say more power to them!

I think in my family, NOT having a gun has saved a life. My husband had a gun when we first got married and shortly after we were married, we were broken into and the gun was stolen. He never replaced it as we had a baby on the way and I didn't want him to, and he told me a few years ago that it was a good thing that we didn't have a gun as he was so depressed many years ago that he would have killed himself with it if we had it. I don't know if that really would have happened or not - but God does.....

Thank you for this post wakeupcall1111, it is a good one as some of us have forgotten about calling out to the Lord in time of real need.
Dave

Yes. Thanks Wakeupcall.
God will not ask something of us that we have no way of accomplishing.
He is the WayMaker, and well-able to do ALL that we cannot.

Father, Lead us not into temptation. Deliver us from evil.

Dr. Rita posted,

Quote :

When I was a military active duty captain Medical Corps , I was arrested twice , by the CID, ( undercover military police) for refusing to obey orders to abuse and degrade by patients. The second time I was arrested as a Captain MD was for refusing to sleep in the same tent with other Captains, Majors, Lt.Cols. who showed me their privates for taunts and intimidation. So it will not be a problem for me to resist sin/the devil/ evil should it try the third time. So I stay armed always, first with the Sword of His Word , and secondly I am trained in both the removal of lead and how to dispose it as well.

That is why after 16 years R.A. appointment I resigned and walked away from any military pay or bonus . I am free in Christ Jesus and His pay and Retirement is worth it .
( by the way this all occurred in 1982 , that's how bad it was even then )

What a powerful testimony, Dr. Rita. Thank you for sharing.
May we all have that kind of Godly good sense and gumption.

Unworthy1 wrote:

You can not use Old Testament examples to support how we should live as New Testament Christians.

Sure you can. 2 Timothy 3-16 "16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

New Testament didn't exist when he said that. Training in righteousness would include whether or not one can defend ones self. Especially if defending ones self is unrighteous.

Unworthy1 wrote:

The FACTS are: Jesus, Peter, Paul, every other apostle except John, and countless Christians over the first two to three centuries suffered death at the hands of wicked men rather than returned evil for evil. Did Peter have a sword - yes. Did Jesus allow him to take one? Yes, but what did Jesus do? He taught them all a lesson. He healed the man Peter struck, and told the apostles that was not the way. That those who lived by the sword would die by the sword (insert gun if you prefer). They learned the lesson, and they taught it to the church. You'd do well to follow their example.

Jesus instructed his disciples at the last supper what was going to happen and what the Fathers will was for this event. Peter was in defiance of what Jesus was teaching as he had already been told that Jesus was to be taken.. Peter wasn't defending himself, he was being offensive and that is what Jesus was referring to.

The man Peter struck was Malchus the servant of the hight priest. Peter was brash and tended to act on impulse. Peter was being offensive, when it was clear that Jesus was allowing himself to be taken. Jesus wasn't just healing the ear of the servant in order to teach a lesson in passivity, He healed anybody who required, This was well within Jesus character.

Dennis

Quote :

Unworthy1 wrote:
You can not use Old Testament examples to support how we should live as New Testament Christians.

Quote :

Dennis wrote: Sure you can. 2 Timothy 3-16 "16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

IF we keep the discussion in context, we have better success at
using the Word Rightly.
I'm sure you don't mean to suggest that if something of the New Covenant doesn't suit our intentions, (our will in a matter) we should abandon it and seek justification in the Old Covenant.

The New Covenant IS a New Way and a New CONTRACT to abide by.
No thought of ours to override it with the Old Contract will hold up under
Judgment.

Quote :

Peter wasn't defending himself, he was being offensive and that is what Jesus was referring to.

Disagree. Offensive would be if the soldier was walking down the street
minding his own business and Peter attacked him for carrying a weapon,
or for being Roman, or for taxing them....or whatever.

Peter certainly did think he was defending Jesus from capture, and
perhaps did think he also was in danger of capture, punishment, death.
And Jesus' point was: Peter...you're not seeing the bigger picture.
You're not seeing God's Plan in action here. You're not realizing that
all this MUST happen this way.
Peter was thinking strictly from the flesh, not from the Will of God.
Jesus knew, of course, and said to Pilate...you could do nothing to Me
except what is the Will of God.

Some scholars say Jesus had the disciples get a sword as safety against
animals. What we DO KNOW is that there is NO RECORD of any of them
fighting anyone for any reason. Instead, we see them enduring all manner
of persecution, beatings, torture, jail.
Their defense was fleeing. Not sword battles.
Paul thought his body might have actually died after one stoning. But He recovered. He probably was dead, and the Spirit raised him up
again in the body.

We can all talk this over with Jesus. And if you can convince Him, then I guess you're good to go.
But keep in mind, Jesus raised persons who were bodily dead. Philip was whisked away in both body and spirit to a different location. God DOES have other ways of saving us if our time is not yet.
Rather than argue with Jesus about what He 'really' meant,
we could learn of our Strength and Assurance in the Spirit, by the
Spirit, and live THAT WAY, like He told us to.
God's on our side. He won't give us more than we are able, in
Him, to do.

Dove , thanks for the kind words. I wanted to add that among my tent of officer doctors was a male Pediatrician. He talked about his faith in Jesus Christ. He did not show his privates as the others did . But , he did not do one thing to help me stand against the abuse that I was going thru that whole week of training physicians for combat field medical duty. When on the first night going to bed those doctors set up the entrance of the tent so I would see them , this was after I respectfully protested to the camp commander to not be in a tent full of men, it was just not needed as there were 8 other nurses , female that we all could have been in a tent of our own.( in fact I was told I was being punished for the Equal Rights Amendment women in the N.O.W. were pushing back then. Where in fact I was a youth speaker in college for the John Birch Society and lectured across the Nation against the N.O.W. ) But no , we were mixed in. I was the only medical doctor female. ( by the way the nurses just loved this arrangement and dressed half naked walking around to the distant bathroom for women and sneered at me, in fact they lied about me stating I was trying to " incite dissent in the field " which is a court martial offense when I asked them if we could request all being together in our own tent as women and I never spoke to them again.) So after being told no I must stay with the men doctor tent I met with my tent doctors and agreed on rules for them to get ready and in bed and then I would come in after and go to my corner where I rigged up my poncho in the corner of the tent to separate me . In the am's , I would wait behind my poncho until they got up and dressed and then after they cleared out I would get up and dress. They agreed. This was the first day and that same night was the set up to show off their right to be undressed! So I just turned around and slept on the cement stoop. This " christian" Pediatrician saw all this and more. That was when I was arrested and marched off. Then sent back the same night , I slept in the mens latrine. ( the womens latrine was 1/2 mile away in the dark on the adjacent military golf course). Then day 2, I was taken by military police to the commander of Fort Hood and interviewed for this " protest" . I was crying and shook up , and tired , and I had just given birth to my first son 9 weeks earlier. By breast were engorged with milk. I had to pass this advanced trauma life support test , and when I got back to the buss to be driven to the field tents the other male officer doctors were ofcourse delayed waiting on me and I was still obviously trying to with hold tears, and when I got back to the tent I got on my knees before these jerks and cried and said I cannot as a Christian stay in this tent with men, I just had my baby, my breast are leaking, I need to pump them , I only lived with 4 sisters, then married at 17 to present and I cannot be with you who broke your word to me the first day! And there was that Christian Pediatrician doing nothing. Nothing ! And the taunting continued. I passed the test , I did all my work in the field and did my job each day saying nothing. I was struct in the head for nodding due to sleep deprivation as I never stayed with the men I slept on the dirt. And when it was all over after about 10 days of hell with these doctors I got on the plane back to Fort Bragg. While on the plan these other service enlisted men came up to me apologizing for what happened to me but said they would never testify if I pressed charges for their own carrier sakes. So this is what I learned about " Christian " men. Yep , those are the ones who say pious "christian" statements in the church but when they get away to the conference or elsewhere away from their wives , they were animals. I pray for that Pediatrician , I forgive them all. I know those men will say don;t expect me to defend my family or a woman or child in distress.

Thanks wakeupcall1111. Solves the issue for me personally & I'm not being sarcastic. Rebuke first & if the predator in question keeps coming its time to commence firing.
edit: typo

Dear Dr. Rita,
People are cruel, no disputing that. This life can be very cruel.
"Love God and love your brother-sister as yourself' goes right out the window in favor of self-preservation (the saving of the flesh...which
belongs on the Cross, anyway). All humans fall short all the time, myself included, of course.

I don't know why any of those men bothered to apologize to you,
except to make themselves feel better. Hollow words, if you ask me.
They failed.

I've gone through stuff. I've been successful, offered riches, had some
of it. I've been homeless and penniless, (and hungry!)
I have two children. I've watched both die in front of me, each more than once, and be brought back and restored.
And I've died myself, more than once. That experience of dying, I think, is why I seem to see things differently from many.
I'm just not so attached to the flesh and the world anymore.

If we die in Christ, where we wake up is not our decision. It could
be here, it could be 'there'. But we do wake up again, somewhere.
I never saw heaven. All that I've seen, I see 'here', while in the
body.
It isn't that I can't explain. It's that everyone knows me in my
full-blown humanness, and knowing that, nobody quite believes me.
That's just how it is. That, and that truly walking by the Spirit~
dying daily so that He might live in me, is~is~is the most
indescribably amazing way to live, that we'd all ask ourselves
WHY, when we know this is what the Bible teaches, do we
not do it! A part of it is doubt, part fear of the unknown.
But more than anything, it's the challenge to part with self-will.
As if self-will was worth something. tsk.

But, back to point. Would I kill another to save my own life?
I pray not. To save the life of a loved one? I pray not.
Defending short of killing is another matter, and I'm sure we all
would. But I also TRUST HIM to provide another way out of it.
And I won't play, "Did God really say???" with scripture.
God is life. Jesus clearly taught against killing.
I'm not going to twist scripture or add to it and pretend He armed the
disciples to kill another in defense of their own lives, thereby
contradicting everything He taught in His life AND in His dying.

If we KNOW Him, then we should know our life is not our own.
And we can all say, 'you, satan, cannot kill me. My life is in
God's Hands alone." In Him will I trust.
What makes us think we could do anything different than trust Him
anyway? And I've written how dying can be, if we truly give
ourselves-our spirit-over to Him.
If we know our life in the Spirit: if we move, live and have our
being in Him in the Spirit, (like the Bible teaches) then death has no sting.
Still, I pray none of us has to face such a challenge.

Dr. Rita, what happened to you is pure evil and it came from higher up. Your co-workers were the perv's flying monkeys (shame on them). Doesn't it just blow your mind how ordinarily normal people can become downright evil in a mob situation AND find it humorous? And how easily righteous people can become unrighteous?

The only way to win in a situation like that is to walk away (if you can survive and are lucky enough to be able to do so). Because they lie, they cheat, they steal, they manipulate, they have no boundaries and have friends in high places. Come quickly Lord Jesus! I'm glad you made it through Dr. Rita. Same thing happened to me (different details). I would have stood up for you, which is probably why they didn't like me either. God bless you and may He watch over you always.

P.S. I voted for Chuck Baldwin and it is your RIGHT to defend yourself. Sometimes it's not possible but boundaries are not meant to be violated and we really do have a socio-psycho-pathic (pathetic) element on this planet who the only boundary they will respect is one that is defended by force. Remove the guns and they will be crawling all over you and yours. And that's a fact.

Thanks Dove and Jem. I voted for Baldwin too.

Dove wrote:

Quote :

Unworthy1 wrote:
You can not use Old Testament examples to support how we should live as New Testament Christians.

Quote :

Dennis wrote: Sure you can. 2 Timothy 3-16 "16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

IF we keep the discussion in context, we have better success at
using the Word Rightly.
I'm sure you don't mean to suggest that if something of the New Covenant doesn't suit our intentions, (our will in a matter) we should abandon it and seek justification in the Old Covenant.

The New Covenant IS a New Way and a New CONTRACT to abide by.
No thought of ours to override it with the Old Contract will hold up under
Judgment.

Quote :

Peter wasn't defending himself, he was being offensive and that is what Jesus was referring to.

do.

There is never a disagreement between New Testament and Old Testament. Only misunderstandings. It appears at this point we will have to agree to disagree, as there is obviously a disagreement on New Testament replacing Old Testament, or New Testament clarifying, and fulfilling Old Testament. That would be out of context with this thread. I made a mistake in getting involved here. Too much volatility. This is my last post. I won't bother you again.

Dennis

Dennis~
I'd send U a PM, but I can't. Don't leave based on anything I said.
Actually, I need to take the break. I've been at this too long.
You stay. No worries.