The post-tribulation/pre-wrath rapture?

Well, so formerly being an ardent defender of the pre-trib rapture position....it is shocking that i'm leaning toward the full circle change in position. After seeing some things that I hadn't previously seen before, I now believe that the rapture will happen just when Jesus said it would.

Matthew 24:27-30

²⁷ For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

²⁸ For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.



Why the change? Well some of the biggest problems I've discovered are that you actually have to allegorize things in order to make the pre-trib position fit. It's stunning really. Like the application of the following verse:

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."-Matthew 24:36

The above verse is almost always used to prove the doctrine of imminency. Yet in context, the verse is obviously talking about the 2nd coming of Christ. Nowhere does Jesus mention the rapture occurring at any moment. This is of course hard to swallow. Furthermore, I've long been tied to the mid-trib position...believing that the rapture would occur at the 7th trumpet. However, I was wrongly placing the 7th trumpet at the middle of the tribulation....when in fact the 7th trumpet blows at almost the end. The following statement is the one that caused the most trouble for me however:

Revelation 6:12-17

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?



I always assumed that this meant the wrath was beginning at the 6th seal. However, I never noticed that the declaration is not made by an angel, or by God himself. It is a declaration made by men. The event seen is simply a description of what is occurring on the earth. Men wrongly attributing the events to the wrath of God. This even occurs now, as people are always saying that Jesus will come this year....and then he doesn't....so they say "this year" and forever that has happened. They attribute things like the gulf of mexico oil spill to the wrath of God as well. It's easy to see how the events unfolding at that time will spark the people of the earth to claim it as the wrath of God. However, the key to knowing when the wrath of God begins, is that an angel or God himself will declare it.

"And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God."-Revelation 15:1

It isn't until this statement that the wrath of God is spoken of from a heavenly viewpoint. The 7 bowl judgments are the wrath of God. Nothing beforehand is the wrath of God. So why the misconception?

"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."-Revelation 12:12

Many people are wrongfully attributing the wrath of satan to being the wrath of God.

What a difficult thing to hear...until you understand God's protection plan.

The Bozrah escape plan, and the gathering in Judea beforehand will protect us from the calamity to come......from the destruction that satan brings upon us.

Welcome to the club, onlyoneimage. There are a number of former pre-tribbers here, myself included, that have struggled through the same thing as you and have arrived at the same conclusion.

Right there with y'all. I was pretty much solid on the pre-trib rapture. You've probably already seen this but it's an excellent video on post trib, pre-wrath scenario.

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researcher wrote:

Welcome to the club, onlyoneimage. There are a number of former pre-tribbers here, myself included, that have struggled through the same thing as you and have arrived at the same conclusion.

Never been a "pre-tribber" but probably only because of family members who've systematically dissected any argument I've ever made on a "pre-tribber's" behalf over the years. I may be the only one, but speaking from personal experience pre-tribbers have always been able to persuade me that they're position is correct. However; as I've researched or 'argued' further the position does not stand up to anyone knowledgeable of the post-trib argument. It is all part of the deception I feel.

The only question that I have is whom are the folks that will repopulate the world? If all the non believers are destroyed for taking the mark and the believers who did not take the mark and survived until the end have all been raptured.

The pre -trib has all the living who did not take the mark and survived till the end, being the "those who repopulate".

If anyone could answer this satisfactorily......

Delfi wrote:

The only question that I have is whom are the folks that will repopulate the world? If all the non believers are destroyed for taking the mark and the believers who did not take the mark and survived until the end have all been raptured.

The pre -trib has all the living who did not take the mark and survived till the end, being the "those who repopulate".

If anyone could answer this satisfactorily......

I understand you here Delfi. Had the same question myself. I am not an ardent defender of this position, but it is the trail I am currently going down.

I don't believe the adersary will have his full will in accomplishing what he is setting out to do. We see terms as "will make war with the saints..." and "causes all to receive a mark..." I believe what I have done and possibly many others is to make us believe that he is successful. While those scriptures (and others like them) point to his plan it doesn't say it is 100% successful. Just because he "causes" doesn't mean it is completed. Quite the reverse actually. We see this verse "had those days not been shortened....no flesh would survive". That last part of this verse I believe is key (no flesh would survive). If we couple that with what we have understood by what we now understand in terms of Noah being righteous (pure genetically) in his generation (race) the the term "no flesh would survive" would most likely speaking of the same thing. In other words, all flesh would be corrupted if God doesn't cut the plans short. Which is an ecouragement if you make it to the point where we see this plan begin to be implemented! Because it is not going to get to finish! That would mean that there are some who are still undecided who will actually survive the wrath. Why? Because the wrath of God is taken out on the adversary and those who have taken the mark (genetic upgrade). Those who have chosen Christ before then and have been purified will be taken out of the way of the wrath (not tribulation) as you guys have pointed out.

I too use to be imminent rapture guy. But, that was only because I sat in Bible studies and nodded my head along with whatever commentary the teacher was speaking out of instead of searching the scriptures for myself. What do you think?

Oh boy, do I ever have a linky-dinky for you. I wondered the same thing myself. This makes a lot of sense. The YouTube below is at the link but there is A LOT of very important text to see at the link so grab ye a cupa java and settle in for a very educational teaching. A teaching that makes so much sense that it hurts to not see it preached from every Christian pulpit, Synagogue, and/or Messianic gathering. Let me know what you think after you are done reading.

Who Will Populate The Millennium? <==== click it

Wow! See how we bless each other? Warrior Shepard, I hadn't even thought of it that way. I'm going to have to do some more hard thinkin.....

researcher wrote:

Oh boy, do I ever have a linky-dinky for you. I wondered the same thing myself. This makes a lot of sense. The YouTube below is at the link but there is A LOT of very important text to see at the link so grab ye a cupa java and settle in for a very educational teaching. A teaching that makes so much sense that it hurts to not see it preached from every Christian pulpit, Synagogue, and/or Messianic gathering. Let me know what you think after you are done reading.

Who Will Populate The Millennium? <==== click it

Thank you! I will watch this tonight.

so del, this answers your question...

zech14:16 ¶And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

this little explanation covers alot, Christ set up the millenium kingdom, dont listen to puny human explanation, the 1st resurrection is the trib saints who lost their collective heads, probably to muslims, if youz guys want to hang for that fun, carry on...

I used to be a pre-tribber until I realized that I could not read it in the bible,and the reason that I believed it,was because I had been conditioned to believe it....I can read of a pre-wrath rapture,but not a pre-trib

murray leslie wrote:

so del, this answers your question...

zech14:16 ¶And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

this little explanation covers alot, Christ set up the millenium kingdom, dont listen to puny human explanation, the 1st resurrection is the trib saints who lost their collective heads, probably to muslims, if youz guys want to hang for that fun, carry on...

Hello Murray, i wonder if that number includes non believers that escaped taking the mark? Probably,

billetman,

While the video you posted was instrumental in helping me "get there".....faithful word baptist church's position isn't exactly "post-trib". They believe the wrath begins at the sixth seal...and wrongfully attribute the sixth seal signs as being the same as what Jesus spoke about(they are different believe it or not). It's important to note, that their position is closer to the mid-trib position.

del, old friend, scripture is a wonderful thing, there are 2 groups of people the quick (believers) and the dead...

acts10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

the 1st resurrection are saints only...

rev20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

the white throne is for the dead...

also rev20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Delfi wrote:

The only question that I have is whom are the folks that will repopulate the world? If all the non believers are destroyed for taking the mark and the believers who did not take the mark and survived until the end have all been raptured.

The pre -trib has all the living who did not take the mark and survived till the end, being the "those who repopulate".

If anyone could answer this satisfactorily......

Hey Delfi, I will attempt a summary type answer. Don't have the time right now to do the full meal deal complete with Scripture.

I think we tend to make the mistake of assuming that there will only be two groups toward the end. The saved who will be raptured, and those who take the mark. I think Scripture indicates that there is a third group - those who have not placed their faith in Christ, yet do not take the mark.

Remember, the purpose of receiving the mark is that the people may buy and sell. Those who need their stuff will take the mark. Those who have to know they will have food will take it.

Who may not take it?. The poor for one. They will have no need of it. They already know what is is to be without. Also, the young may not take the mark.

The kingdom belongs to the poor, but it is very difficult for a rich person to enter...

(My friends at biblestudying.net were talking about this in our Thursday night video conference study)

Hmmm, there seems to be some posts that are not showing up. I can only see them when I hit reply. Not on the main page of the topic...

Hello Y'all  Yeah Unworthy1, I'm starting to see that too.  

Delfi wrote:

Hello Y'all  Yeah Unworthy1, I'm starting to see that too.  

This is what The Endtimes Pilgrim that I linked to says as well. I'm so glad to see this view discussed. Didn't Daniel say that understanding was for the end time folks? That be us.

jem, the 1st resurrection is for tribulation saints only..

rev20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Jem,

That's what I thought for a long time. Now I see that it is a false omen. What's the difference? Remember that faithful word Baptist says the wrath begins at the 6th seal...and that the first 3 1/2 years is the tribulation...while the entire 2nd half is the wrath of God. I used to think this as well....but it doesn't line up with the feast days right. There are some other issues as well. I do want to point out one big issue with this all.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"-Matthew 24:29

"12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."-Revelation 6:12-14

Notice anything different here? When the sixth seal is opened, the sun is "eclipsed" but the moon becomes as blood. It is visible...not darkened. Jesus said both the sun and the moon would not give their light when the rapture happens.

When the 4th trumpet is unleashed...which is AFTER the seals are unleashed(we know this for a FACT because the 7th seal is the 7 trumpets themselves, rev 8:1-2) it is only 1/3 of the moon that is darkened.

Of course there is a lot of confusion in all of this...but I finally know exactly how to read revelation. Read it straight through....literally....and it is CHRONOLOGICAL. There is no need to allegorize any of it, or to cut it in half, or to try to show the same events happening through multiple viewpoints.

"For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine."-Isaiah 13:10

Even joel makes a distinguishment.

"10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?"-Joel 2:10-11

"30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come."-Joel 2:30-31

I want you to notice something specific about Joel. When the sun and moon are darkened.....it is the day of the Lord. When the moon is turned to blood...it is BEFORE the great and terrible day of the Lord. It's very distinct, and if you line each part of joel up with revelation....you'll see that the 6th seal is verse 31, and verses 10-11 are much later on.

onlyoneimage wrote:

I want you to notice something specific about Joel. When the sun and moon are darkened.....it is the day of the Lord. When the moon is turned to blood...it is BEFORE the great and terrible day of the Lord. It's very distinct, and if you line each part of joel up with revelation....you'll see that the 6th seal is verse 31, and verses 10-11 are much later on.

OnlyOneImage, you may have something in the red moon being before and the dark moon being after. I'm open to that and am not tied to a mid-trib position. I only know that it happens after that point.

In Revelation 2:10 it says we shall have tribulation ten days, which is plenty of time for the moon to go from red to black. And Ten Days of Awe go from Rosh Hashanah (trumpets) to Yom Kippur (judgment day) so that kind of fits too. By the way, I'd love to hear how you see the feast days fitting in.

Here's something from Isaiah to take into consideration. It's about the day of the Lord (wrath) and reads like Revelation 6:15.

Isaiah 2
10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty.
11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
12 For the day of the LORD of hosts [shall be] upon every [one that is] proud and lofty, and upon every [one that is] lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made [each one] for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

jem, our gathering together, and being caught up, is a resurrection, if we are ded, but a translation if we are alive and remain, so the rapture involves all believers from abraham to the point of the rapture, the wife of God plus the bride of Christ...

isa54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

the jew is the wife, set aside temporarily so the gentile may find grace... 

rom11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

so the rapture is not only a resurrection, but the tribulation saints will not fear a second death, like @ the white throne because they have found salvation like the saints before the rapture, but the ded, and not the quickened stand before Christ @ the white throne to give account, where the ded may still find themselves in the lake of fire, depending on their works...

Hi Murray. I agree with Isa54:5 and Romans. That was very interesting. Did you know that the 1st resurrection (of the dead) takes place before the rapture (of the living)?

1 Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

How does that fit with Revelation chapter 7? Thanks!

yes, thats interesting...