New experiments on Shroud show it’s not medieval

Professor Giulio Fanti and journalist Saverio Gaeta have published a book with the results of some chemical and mechanical tests which confirm that the Shroud dates back to the 1st century
by Andrea Tornielli
Rome

New scientific experiments carried out at the University of Padua have apparently confirmed that the Shroud Turin can be dated back to the 1st century AD. This makes its compatible with the tradition which claims that the cloth with the image of the crucified man imprinted on it is the very one Jesus’ body was wrapped in when he was taken off the cross. The news will be published in a book by Giulio Fanti, professor of mechanical and thermal measurement at the University of Padua’s Engineering Faculty, and journalist Saverio Gaeta, out tomorrow. “Il Mistero della Sindone” (The Mystery of the Shroud) is edited by Rizzoli (240 pp, 18 Euro).

read more at the link:
http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/inquiries-and-interviews/detail/articolo/sindone-23579/

This is the one that first convinced me. [step over the secular scientific
explanations if need be. I suppose they're giving it their best shot with the
little real knowledge and understanding they have]. But, I've always felt the Rapture will be an 'explosive' event that we can't quite imagine.

There's a better vid of what she shows that I can't find.

Thanks for sharing that video, Dove!

Yah saw her on the video "Fabric in Time". She was amazing in her discovery. Hope this Easter some christian station will show that vid again.

Thanks for the article and the video everyone. Fascinating stuff!

http://antipas.net/13faq.htm





















According to scripture and Hebrew burial practices........

The Bible states quite clearly that the body of Christ Jesus was coated with a mixture of myrrh and aloes. That He was wrapped with strips of linen cloth like a mummy. (See: John 19:38-40) And, that His head was separately covered with His own Hebrew prayer shawl. (John 20:7) This burial preparation method was, at the time of Christ Jesus, the "custom of the Jews" mentioned in John’s Gospel. This Hebrew burial-preparation method has no similarity at all with the Shroud of Turin.

Ever since the Israelites dwelled for over 400 years in Egypt, the burial "custom of the Jews" was, externally, identical to that of mummification, without any of the internal aspects.

And, at the time of Christ Jesus, following a ritual washing of the corpse...

Dead Hebrew bodies were first coated with a mixture of myrrh and aloes. Then they were wrapped with long linen strips that were saturated with more myrrh and aloes.

Beginning with the extremities, each arm and leg was individually wound like a mummy. Then the entire body was wound from toes to neck, also like wrapping a mummy.

The fully wrapped body was then coated with any remaining myrrh and aloes, while the unwrapped head was simply covered (draped) with the dead Hebrew’s own prayer shawl, which was not saturated with myrrh and aloes. Within 3 days, the mixture of myrrh and aloes dries rock-hard, like shellac, producing an exceedingly stiff and solid cocoon.

A CHRONOLOGY OF CHRIST JESUS' BURIAL:
Joseph of Arimathaea's and Nicodemus' burial party (the "chevra kadisha") had to use a work-gang to remove the cross from its post-hole, use tools to remove the nails, and remove Christ Jesus' dead body from off of the cross.
After that, the burial party had to transport Christ Jesus' dead body to a nearby grave site.
After that, the burial party furnished water and began the required washing of the body according to Jewish law. Blood, sweat and dirt were washed off the body, showing the blood-stained, sweat-stained, "Shroud of Turin" to be faked.
After that, the burial party furnished 100 pounds of myrrh mixed with aloes.
After that, the burial party furnished linen cloth torn into strips.
After that, the burial party coated Christ Jesus' entire dead body with some of the myrrh and aloes.
After that, the burial party saturated the linen strips with more of the myrrh and aloes.
After that, the burial party wound the saturated linen strips around the individual extremities first, then they wound the entire body up to the neck, in mummy-like fashion, with arms and hands along the sides. NOT with arms and hands crossed in front of the body, showing the Shroud of Turin to be a fraud.
After that, the burial party applied the remaining myrrh and aloes mixture to the outside of the wrapped carcass.
This process is "the burial custom of the Jews" referred-to in John's Gospel, and proves the "Shroud of Turin" to be a hoax.
After that, the burial party had to place the mummy-wrapped carcass inside the tomb.

After that, Christ Jesus' own prayer shawl was draped over His face, what is called a "Burial Napkin", and is also "the burial custom of the Jews" referred-to in John's Gospel, and further proves the "Shroud of Turin" to be a fraud.

Now, the events listed above are found in the "Original" Scriptures, the Greek New Testament manuscripts:
See: MATTHEW 27:57-60; MARK 15:42-46; LUKE 23:50-55, & 24:12; JOHN 19:38-42, & 20:5-8



And don't forget Lazarus, who was raised from the dead, the brother of Mary and Martha:

JOHN 11:44 - The man who had died came forth, bound hand and foot with wrappings, and his face was wrapped around with a cloth. Jesus said to them, "Unbind him, and let him go." --- NASB

Same as Jesus, Lazarus was wrapped with wrappings (like a mummy) which required that other persons remove (cut off) the wrappings. Rather than have Lazarus, himself, cast off the burial clothes like a bed sheet (shroud) as he arose.

Since Lazarus was resurrected from the dead as a mere mortal, Lazarus had not received a glorified body and could not exit from his burial wrappings on his own. Lazarus had to be helped in order to remove his burial wrappings, and Lazarus eventually died, permanently, at a later date.

When Jesus was resurrected, it was into eternal life with a glorified body. And, just like when Jesus had miraculously appeared in the room where the Disciples were gathered (in order to show Himself to them), without being seen entering through a door or window (for Jesus was thought to have passed through a wall or through the closed door), He had exited (passed through) His own burial wrappings without the aid of another person. Exiting miraculously without having His own burial wrappings cut off, as Lazarus' were (which required having Lazarus' burial wrappings cut off and removed by others).

Also (same as Jesus), Lazarus' face was separately covered with his own prayer shawl, as a burial napkin, which was the burial custom of the Jews in that day and age.

Blessed1313, you just got some rep for that well thought out and researched posting. I couldn't have said it any better. Two thumbs up.

Dove wrote:

This is the one that first convinced me. [step over the secular scientific
explanations if need be. I suppose they're giving it their best shot with the
little real knowledge and understanding they have]. But, I've always felt the Rapture will be an 'explosive' event that we can't quite imagine.

There's a better vid of what she shows that I can't find.

Yeah, what is a glorified body, technically and what would it take to change flesh to Glory? Just exactly how do you "put on" incorruption?

What's it going to feel like? I would like to know, it sort of sounds like we explode into it.... That's what the Genius's need to be working on, not useless "pork" like the homosexual habits of the banana slug etc.

researcher wrote:

Blessed1313, you just got some rep for that well thought out and researched posting. I couldn't have said it any better. Two thumbs up.

Yeah, that was very interesting, I wonder what happened to those graveclothes after Peter saw them? One person says the shroud is miraculous, the other says it isn't a normal Jewish burial cloth. So what it it? What kind fo crazy things were they playing with in the first century?

Delfi wrote:

researcher wrote:

Blessed1313, you just got some rep for that well thought out and researched posting. I couldn't have said it any better. Two thumbs up.

Yeah, that was very interesting, I wonder what happened to those graveclothes after Peter saw them? One person says the shroud is miraculous, the other says it isn't a normal Jewish burial cloth. So what it it? What kind fo crazy things were they playing with in the first century?

Add that to your list of questions that you're compiling to ask The Master after He takes us up, torches this rock to a fried cinder in His wrath, then remakes it like the garden that it aught to be. In other words, nobody on this side of the millennium knows where the grave-clothes went, the Bible doesn't say, so it's all speculation at this point.

It's hard to imagine that there's been so much speculation devoted to it
if the answer was so obvious. I did see the scripture references wrapping
of hands and feet only regarding Lazarus.

It will take some time....or we can just wait, as was said.

Grant R. Jeffrey's makes some good points below on the Shroud...

The Mysterious Shroud of Turin



By Grant R. Jeffrey

Of all evidence that exists regarding Jesus, the most remarkable and controversial by far is the Shroud of Turin. Millions of Christians believe the shroud is the burial cloth used by the disciples to wrap the body of Christ following His crucifixion. For centuries people have debated the origin of this ancient piece of faded linen that bears a mysterious image of a crucified man. Despite the reverence millions of believers pay to the shroud, skeptics reject the claims that this might be the linen burial cloth mentioned in all four of the Gospels. The critics believe that the image on the shroud is simply the result of a clever medieval artistic forger, which is not so improbable an assumption, given the fact that the medieval period produced thousands of fake relics for the curious and naive religious pilgrims who were easily fooled into believing that someone's old bones might be the mortal remains of one of the apostles or that a piece of the true cross had miraculously survived.

However, even the critics admit that the Shroud of Turin is the most fascinating and controversial of all claimed relics. Despite hundreds of tests no one has been able to successfully explain how the mysterious image of a crucified man could have been produced by a medieval artist on the surface fibers of this linen cloth. After twenty years of testing by some of the world's best scientists, using the most advanced scientific equipment, the mystery of the formation of the image on the shroud remains unsolved. Over one hundred and fifty thousand hours of detailed scientific testing has only deepened the mystery of how and when the astonishing image of a crucified man was formed on this ancient piece of linen. The shroud is without doubt the most extensively researched ancient artifact in the history of science. The real question is Who is the man in the shroud? Is this burial cloth a silent witness to the resurrection --- the most miraculous event in history? Or is this shroud evidence of the greatest art forgery known to date?

The modern history of the Shroud of Turin began in 1357 with its first public display in a small wooden church in the forest near the tiny village of Lirey, France. The presentation of the shroud in the church produced a great deal of interest among the religious inhabitants of the province. Soon great crowds of pilgrims began to appear daily to witness this relic from the distant past that appeared to reveal an astonishing image of the crucified Messiah imprinted on its yellowed linen fibers. Although the earlier history of the shroud is indeed cloaked in mystery and legend, from 1357 on this curious cloth has captured the attention and the reverence of millions of people throughout the world. Over the centuries the shroud was often brought forth from its protected silver box to be displayed to the faithful as both a symbol and image of the Savior.

The Biblical Evidence

All four Gospels record the fact that Jesus was buried in a sindone, a linen burial cloth or shroud. This detail of Christ's burial obviously was considered to be very important and worthy of being recorded by the Scriptures. The following passages indicate its importance:

"And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed" (Matthew 27:59--60).

"And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre" (Mark 15:46).

"And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid" (Luke 23:53).

"Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass" (Luke 24:12).

The disciple John, the author of the Gospel of John, records the scene when Peter and he ran to the tomb after hearing from Mary Magdalene that Christ's body was not there:

"And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in. Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself. Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed" (John 20:5--.

In this passage John alludes to the fact that there was something remarkable about the burial clothes lying on the floor of the empty tomb that convinced him that Jesus had truly risen from the dead. Is it possible that John saw an image of Christ on the linen burial cloth that proved the truth of His resurrection? Could the mysterious Shroud of Turin be "the clean linen cloth" that Joseph of Arimathea used to wrap the body of his beloved Jesus of Nazareth when he placed it in his tomb?

A Description of the Shroud of Turin and Its Significance

The Shroud is a sepia-yellow-colored linen cloth fourteen feet long and forty-three inches wide. A hand-sewn seam attached lengthwise was added to the original cloth at some unknown point of time. A faint image of the front and back of a man's body can still be seen on the linen, but the image appears to be formed by a deeper yellowing of some of the surface linen fibers. This subtle image almost melts away as you draw near to the burial cloth. In addition, a number of carmine-or-rust colored stains that appear to be blood stains can be seen on the body image. These stains are consistent with the Gospel's account of the scourging and crucifixion of Jesus. In addition to the image of a man, there are obvious water stains, scorch marks, and diamond-shaped repair patches that are the result of repairs made by nuns after a fire in 1532 that caused the silver box holding the Shroud to melt and burn several holes through the precious cloth.

Many skeptics have assumed that the image was painted on the cloth by a talented but unknown artist during the medieval period, in an era when literally tens of thousands of such relics --- alleged pieces of the true cross, bones of the disciples, and even images of Jesus --- were found in the monasteries, royal courts, and churches of every nation in Christendom. In fact, when the crusader knights returned from their brutal wars in the Holy Land, they often brought back various relics that they had stolen or purchased at great cost from the churches in the cities and villages of Israel.

On its face, the claim that an ancient object such as a linen burial cloth could actually survive throughout twenty centuries of war, pillage, and catastrophe seems almost impossible. However, museums throughout the world contain many examples of cloth that have survived for much longer than the purported age of the burial Shroud in Turin. In fact, there are examples of ancient burial shrouds from Egyptian tombs and Coptic cemeteries that predate the purported age of the Turin cloth by more than a thousand years.

Centuries later, the shroud was exhibited in Turin in 1898 to celebrate the fiftieth anniversary of the creation of the Italian kingdom. Secondo Pia, an amateur photographer, was given permission to shoot the first photographs ever taken of the shroud. To his great surprise, the negative of the black and white photograph revealed an extremely life-like image of a tall man with a strong face and striking features and surprising life-like details that could not be seen before. In general, the image revealed an anatomically correct image of a crucified man, whose wounds reflected the wounds suffered by Jesus Christ, as recounted in the Synoptic Gospels.

This intriguing photograph launched the modern period of scientific examination of the Shroud to determine if it could possibly be the genuine burial cloth of Jesus or simply the result of a brilliant artist's attempt to depict the passion of Christ for the edification of the saints. In 1931, at another exhibition of the shroud, even more detailed photographs were taken that allowed scientists to carefully examine the image in terms of the medical evidence of the wounds that seemed surprisingly consistent with the Gospels' record of Jesus' crucifixion and modern medical knowledge of human anatomy.

The Medical Evidence of a Crucified Man

The first real scientific examination of the shroud began in Paris at the Sorbonne University medical school following the release of the photographs created in 1898 by Secondo Pia. Yves Delage, a brilliant professor of comparative anatomy, undertook detailed studies of the physiology of the body image, as well as the evidence of pathology derived from the details of the wounds found in the image of the crucified body. As an atheist, Delage was astonished to find that the image displayed a remarkably accurate anatomic depiction of a dead male, whose body had been both whipped and crucified and showed evidence of rigor mortis. The multiple whip wounds and the resulting blood flow from the scourgings, puncture wounds in the head, spike wounds through the wrists and feet, and a wound in the man's right side were all consistent with the Gospel record of Jesus Christ's crucifixion.

A scientific analysis reveals a naked, well-formed, muscular adult male in his thirties. He has a mustache, full beard, and shoulder-length long hair that appears to be tied back behind the head. Such a hair style and length are consistent with what we know of Jewish customs of the Second Temple period. The body measures approximately 5 foot 10 inches in height, with a weight estimated to be about 175 pounds, which is about average for Jewish males of the first-century, according to recent excavations in Israel. Harvard professor Carleton Coon has described the physical appearance of the man in the shroud as being "of a physical type found in modern times among Sephardic Jews and noble Arabs"

The image of the body reveals as many as one hundred and twenty wounds, each approximately one and one-half inches long on the back, arms, and shoulders. They appear to be produced by dumbbell-shaped objects and are consistent with wounds formed by the Roman whip, known as the flagrum. The flagrum was a brutal multiple-thonged whip with lead or bone dumbbell-shaped weights attached to the ends of the whip that would tear the skin and flesh. While some critics have pointed out that ancient Jewish law prohibited giving a prisoner more than forty strokes with a whip, Roman law did not limit the number of times prisoners could be whipped. While some critics and skeptics have suggested that Jesus did not die on the cross, the evidence from the shroud indicates that the man may have been near death from the repeated whippings, even before he suffered the brutality of crucifixion. Scientists have noted that the shoulders appear to be severely bruised and the blood stains from whip wounds are distorted by something having rubbed against the shoulders. This may be explained by the Gospel account that Jesus was forced to carry the cross, which would have produced such bruising. In addition, the various wounds on the knees of the man in the image may reflect what would have happened to Jesus as He stumbled and fell repeatedly while carrying the cross on the way to Golgotha.

Some critics have complained that the evidence from the wounds in the image suggests that the body had not been washed, contrary to ancient Jewish burial practices that required the body to be washed before burial. However, the urgency to bury the body before the commencement of the Sabbath may have prevented the normal washing. However, a Jewish scholar, Prof. Victor Tunkel of London University, has pointed out that Jewish practice would actually have prohibited the washing of a body of a person who was violently killed to ensure that his blood would remain with the body in anticipation of the future bodily resurrection. Even today in Israel ultra-Orthodox religious groups carefully gather the bodily remains and blood of victims of terrorist bombs to bury such items with the body. The fact that the body was unwashed argues that the shroud is genuine.

Another remarkable aspect of the burial cloth is that the blood flow from the wrist indicates that the spike was placed through the wrist of the man in the shroud and not through the palm, as we find depicted on countless religious paintings of Christ on the cross. Dr. Pierre Barbet performed numerous experiments with cadavers and amputated arms to demonstrate that a spike through the palm would not hold any body weighing more than 90 pounds. However, by nailing the spike through the opening between the bones in that part of the wrist known as the "Space of Destot," the spike would fully support the weight of an adult male body, exactly as we find in the image on the shroud.2

Israeli archeologists recently discovered an ossuary or stone coffin at Giv'at ha-Mivtar, near Jerusalem, that contained the body of a male who had been crucified. The spike was still in place through both feet, and the spike that held the arms had been placed through the Space of Destot. The legs of the crucified man, specifically the fibula and the right and left tibia, had been broken to hasten his death, exactly as had happened to the two thieves who were crucified on either side of Jesus, according to the Gospel of John.

Um... weren't they in a hurry when they burried Jesus. Weren't the 2 women going to his grave to perhaps finish with the burial ceremony because they were hastened?

I seem to remember hearing that the head cloth was found somewhere else and also lines up with the shroud. Doesn't the bible say that His burial cloth was folded up. Suggesting that it was a long cloth.

So God can't bust out of a few mummy wrappings? Then he clearly couldn't have bust out of a tomb...Sorry I believe the shroud is the real deal and left for us doubting Thomas's.

Shroud of Turin Hits Airwaves Amid New Claims That It's Real
By ABC News | ABC News Blogs – 3 hours ago


A viewing of the The Shroud of Turin, thought by many to be the burial cloth of Jesus Christ, will reportedly be televised Saturday on Italian State TV in what is said to be former Pope Benedict XVI's parting gift to the Catholic Church.
The televised viewing of the shroud on Holy Saturday will be the first in 40 years, according to a report in the Guardian newspaper.

The centuries-old linen cloth - one of the world's most famous relics - contains a faint impression of the front and back of a human body, along with blood, dirt and water stains from age. Many Roman Catholics believe the impressions were left by the body of Jesus after his crucifixion.

"There was no portrait made of Jesus so, really, the shroud still remains the best single thing that we have," said Russ Breault, president of the Shroud of Turin Education Project Inc., an organization "dedicated to raising awareness and understanding" of the shroud, according to its website.

The shroud's authenticity, however, has long been a subject of deep debate.

MORE: Is Face of Jesus Christ Revealed?

Skeptics believe the 14-foot cloth was faked during medieval times. Scientists have used various methods, including carbon dating, to test the authenticity of the fabric, and some results have supported the belief that the cloth is a medieval forgery. But there might be new evidence to support the view that the shroud is real.

Scientists at the University of Padua in Northern Italy have conducted experiments that show the shroud dates back to around the time of Christ's life, according to an article in the Daily Telegraph newspaper.

The researchers used infra-red light to analyze fibers from the shroud. Their analysis was published in the new book, "Il Mistero della Sindone" (The Mystery of the Shroud") by Giulio Fanti, a professor of mechanical and thermal measurement at the university, and Saverio Gaeta, a journalist, the Telegraph also reported.

RELATED: The Shroud of Turin Wasn't Faked, Italian Experts Say

"When you consider that there are no substances on the cloth that were conceivably used by an artist, and the fact that the blood on the cloth is human blood, it would suggest that the cloth is probably authentic," Breault said.

"The shroud can never replace faith," he added. "I don't think we can ever know for sure whether the shroud is absolutely authentic because we don't have the DNA of Jesus to match it up with something that we might extract from the shroud itself."

The shroud is owned by the Vatican, although the Catholic church has never taken an official position on the cloth's authenticity.

The shroud is kept in a special climate-controlled casket in Turin. The shroud was last on public display in Italy in 2010, and its last televised appearance was in 1973.

The special 90-minute broadcast of the shroud will be broadcast from Turin Cathedral and will be introduced by the new leader of the Catholic Church, Pope Francis, according to the Guardian.

"It will be a message of intense spiritual scope, charged with positivity, which will help hope never to be lost," the archbishop of Turin, Cesare Nosiglia, told the paper.

http://gma.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blogs/shroud-turin-hits-airwaves-amid-claims-real-121809828--abc-news-topstories.html

Hal Lindsey has the mummy point of view with a twist!

From an aspie viewpoint (a bit autistic)(*), I think it's funny so many are intensely focused on artifacts or relics.

The grail, the spear, the cross, the nails, the shroud, the head wrap ... the arc of the covenant. In and of themselves, to me, they mean nothing.

One theory about charged objects as concerns demonic practices is that they're like a bus stop -- that's where you go for a ride. So demons look for those that show they're open to receiving demons by hanging around places or objects where blood has been (or is being) sacrificed. (note: "blood of Abel crying out")

Think about the battle in the spiritual in the old days when the people of God were expected to sacrifice. But it's not the sacrifice itself that matters. "Obedience is better than sacrifice." Even the sacrifice of praise.

So I suppose the opposite is worth considering in the sense that the holy angels might gather around holy places and things to bless or do that which are miracles to us. Places that are consecrated. Something like the pool of Bethesda... if indeed that was about holy angels stirring the waters. Or the bones of Elisha (potent enough to raise the dead).

So why the fascination with relics? Do folks need something tangible for evidence to believe? Even if the evidence is dicey... Or are they like art? Something to dwell on and infuse with meaning? Why do you care?

* - I know I'm different. There are things I just don't get. I don't get going to funerals or visiting graves. I don't get dancing or kissing as part of coupling... (yeah I understand that's arousing and part of courtship, but I'm not wired that way). I don't get most comedy. I don't get statues. I don't get mementos. And I just don't get relics. That means they make no difference to me. It's like a cell phone (or any other tool). I really don't care it's a cell phone. It's only meaning is in use. Apart from use, it's like forensic evidence. A tooth may have DNA which results in a conviction. After the conviction, what good is the tooth? Just explaining my particular indifference to this whole area. What does matter to me is that so many get something out of relics.

My interest is for the unbelievers, the fence sitters, the 'sight' rather
than faith people; that it might make them reconsider, entertain that
it all might be true after all, and seek out the deeper Truths.
For that reason, it would be 'better' if it was real, and will add to even
more skepticism it it's proven untrue. [As John seems to indicate.]

It would have been better all in all if such a thing didn't exist, it seems.
But we need patience too, I guess, for the Thomases.

Just my opinion on it. I do understand what Hiscity means about
idols, icons, relics, miracle apparitions, etc.
We just got fortunate, I guess. I was so disgusted and broken by
my own life that it wasn't all that hard to give it up.

hiscity wrote:

The grail, the spear, the cross, the nails, the shroud, the head wrap ... the arc of the covenant. In and of themselves, to me, they mean nothing.

I would agree to all of this except for the ark of the covenant. The ark is extremely significant and still has a roll to play yet. I've posted elsewhere, but I will try to post it again soon as it's own topic. The ark will be pivotal in bringing again the whole world under a curse to be judged.

That's a really good point Dove.

Quote :

Just my opinion on it. I do understand what Hiscity means about idols, icons, relics, miracle apparitions, etc.

Relics would likely be idolized more - if there were some more tangible evidence of the supernatural in them. Which is part of what's funny to me, since it seems like wanting physical things to be more spiritual.

(The other part is that I can be perfectly happy tinkering with some gadget or even just sorting out a bin of hardware, like mixed screws. I guess that's like what others get out of knitting or prayer beads? So I get over-focused on things to the exclusion of people, which is part of being aspie for me, I think. So who am I to say that folks shouldn't keep things as reminders, like mementos. No criticism intended. I'm really asking....)

Take LA Marzulli for instance. The shroud means a lot to him. Likewise bones of giants, tangible ufo's, crop circles, implants, etc. (I think nephlim bones are all around us in the form of neandertal and dinosaurs bones. The DNA reseaarchers should look for common DNA between neandertal and and other ancient bones as evidence of rebel angel incursion.)

I'm much more convinced that on a daily basis - it's the "focus" (or distraction) that's the hazard. Those that take crop circles as evidence of benevolent space aliens sending voyager style communications to earth - are snared in a trap, (a gate like meditation), that allows channels to be set up with the rebel angels and their spawn.

So I suspect that the daily distraction of hoping for disclosure, or believing that a one world government can save the world, or accepting that transhumanism with implanted computers are the next step to utopia.... is far more destructive to the current generation than were these things actually to happen.

Let's go the next step. What would result if there were more evidence that relics related to Christ's life are authentic? Something like finding that DNA on the shroud directly relates to samples from the corpse of King David as an ancestor....

Warrior Shepard,

I'd really welcome your comment in your upcoming article dealing with the issue that the Ark of the Testament is shown to be in Heaven in the Revelation.

So the Ark of the Covenant might be different, not in heaven yet, a shadow of the the Heavenly Ark, etc.

]quote="hiscity"]That's a really good point Dove.

Heehee..I thought you were going to say I totally missed your point.
[ I'm putting your words in my favorite color, just because.]

Quote :

Just my opinion on it. I do understand what Hiscity means about idols, icons, relics, miracle apparitions, etc.

Relics would likely be idolized more - if there were some more tangible evidence of the supernatural in them. Which is part of what's funny to me, since it seems like wanting physical things to be more spiritual.

I'd flip that...and say they want-need spiritual things to be more physical,
so that they could then relate more, begin to grasp it better.
To the unbeliever, we seem to just believe in one more of the ancient myths.
They don't know how to access the 'unseen' but very real proof of 'Christ with us' that we enjoy.

(The other part is that I can be perfectly happy tinkering with some gadget or even just sorting out a bin of hardware, like mixed screws. I guess that's like what others get out of knitting or prayer beads? So I get over-focused on things to the exclusion of people, which is part of being aspie for me, I think. So who am I to say that folks shouldn't keep things as reminders, like mementos. No criticism intended. I'm really asking....)

You don't take your hardware to be Holy, or to have properties
or Powers of Holiness. But, some activities don't require a lot of mental
engagement, effort or activity. And those times of ceasing from our
labors allow us moments of greater Spiritual clarity, in my experience.
Some of my best understanding has come while dish washing or
brushing my teeth. Truly.


Take LA Marzulli for instance. The shroud means a lot to him. Likewise bones of giants, tangible ufo's, crop circles, implants, etc.
Agreed. And I don't participate in those studies. Nor can I explain why
others do.

(I think nephlim bones are all around us in the form of neandertal and dinosaurs bones.
Agreed! Pretty much, anyway. I'm not into nephilim, but certainly the
giants makes perfect historical sense to me as a normal part of their
natural environment. Let's face it, everything was bigger.

The DNA reseaarchers should look for common DNA between neandertal and and other ancient bones as evidence of rebel angel incursion.)
Works for me.

I'm much more convinced that on a daily basis - it's the "focus" (or distraction) that's the hazard.
THANK YOU! I was just making that case elsewhere last week.
I could go a page or two on that.

Those that take crop circles as evidence of benevolent space aliens sending voyager style communications to earth - are snared in a trap, (a gate like meditation), that allows channels to be set up with the rebel angels and their spawn.
I'm good with that assessment too.

So I suspect that the daily distraction of hoping for disclosure, or believing that a one world government can save the world, or accepting that transhumanism with implanted computers are the next step to utopia.... is far more destructive to the current generation than were these things actually to happen.
I suppose that's why we do what we do. To warn. It's just that about the only
people who will listen to us is us.
And the conclusion must be that it's only the Message of the Gospel
that saves.

Let's go the next step. What would result if there were more evidence that relics related to Christ's life are authentic? Something like finding that DNA on the shroud directly relates to samples from the corpse of King David as an ancestor....
When you mention DNA, we shoot into the workings of the abyss, where, as I say, I really don't spend any time.
I can only believe this is a line God WILL NOT let satan cross.
Satan does not have free rein. I'm sure the Sanctity of the Blood
cannot ever be approached.
So if 'they' should ever dare make such a claim, I will call them
liars at the top of my lungs to whomever might hear.
I don't know as it's possible that they could even utter a claim about it,
even suggest that they had it. Meaning God would shut their mouths.
But that's a horrendous scenario, and gives me more reason to say
we'd be better off without these objects.
If this was your point, you did a superb job of making it! [/quote]

Thanks Researcher!!! I'm an old researcher too . Dove........Thomas is the Perrrrfect example!!! I believe God when he states do not make idols or images.........because mankind (look at Israel's history....ahhh) always has a tendency to eventually start worshipping these images..........Satan knows this too!!! While on the Mt of transfiguration, the first thing Peter wanted to do was make a memorial to Jesus and the 2 with him that looked like Moses and Elijah. Jesus said NO! God has always stated he is not interested in those type of things..........he wants our hearts and minds. This leads me (jmho) to believe that it will be important to know the character of who Jesus is when he returns and not what he looks like (whether he is white, black, yellow, green or purple) because the TRUTH will be the WAY and the LIGHT we are to follow. In fact, the bible (Is 53:3) tells us he WASN'T very good looking and his appearance was NOT handsome that any should desire him!!!! Lucifer was just the OPPOSITE!! He had beauty and riches. Now......the son of God who had NO outward beauty.........but yet MULTITUDES followed him.........hmmmmmmm.... WHY??? He healed and fed the masses BOTH physically and SPIRITUALLY!! Why would God change his own STATED laws and leave behind an IMAGE of his son to be worshipped???

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.





Is it any wonder that MANY will believe the lie?? Remember the bible states the WHOLE world wonders at the beast whose wound was healed (beast being a nation that was, is not........yet will be). Hint is found in the time period that John ACTUALLY wrote this book on Patmos. There would have been only 7 churches left out of the ten that Paul had been to. (history shows several of those church areas destroyed by earthquakes) Then ask if the world would be amazed and happy about a Roman empire being established again??? Then ask if there was a nation revived that the whole world was in awe of?? (is it still be idolized??? Where did Paul say New Jerusalem was? Who is Hephzibah and where is Beulah????

Dove wrote:

hiscity: Let's go the next step. What would result if there were more evidence that relics related to Christ's life are authentic? Something like finding that DNA on the shroud directly relates to samples from the corpse of King David as an ancestor....
dove: When you mention DNA, we shoot into the workings of the abyss, where, as I say, I really don't spend any time.

There's no call to go beyond highway and hedges... that's for sure. And those folks that have been in the life (whatever that was) and then minister where they were called, best go with two and the Holy Ghost.

Give me a pointer please to the discussion you mentioned when you come across it again. This captures my attention and looks great for a separate thread!

Gotta put my cards on the table on this since I think "normal" is the most toxic guise of the rebel angels. It's easy to deal with the more obvious.

I can give a better answer [hopefully] on Monday.

I might have lost you on the DNA point. What came to my mind
concerned speculation I've read of 'them' taking DNA from the
shroud and somehow creating the antichrist with it.

I can't believe it could happen.

The rest of it was in a letter. But, at it's heart
is my feeling that if we know the solution-the cure to any problem,
why look for anything else?

If I have a headache, and a bottle of tylenol in hand, even if
I could learn the physiology of a headache, and even the chemical
processes by which tylenol makes it disappear, what is the
prudent course of action?

And as the anointing is the Power over any and all demonic forces,
is there something more I need?

It could even be true that the less we know, the better off we are,
because I'll not be tempted by my knowledge to think to do anything
of myself, and will [then] by necessity, be leaning entirely on Him,
having have spent my time and attention on the relationship with
Him that is available to us all.

And if you wonder why, then, I'm here, that's valid. And I'm not sure
exactly how I'd answer.

I don't believe I'm naive over dark spiritual entities. There have
been several life periods where I've inadvertently studied their
words and works. So possibly ? I am too critical toward others who
have such a strong and lasting interest in it.
But there always has to come a turning point where we leave it behind
and build ourselves up in the Goodness and Glory of God. And the sooner
we reach that point, the better, I feel.

And again, when we study, it really is a different experience from an unbeliever who studies the same things, because we're watched over. I really fear for them. You know we've seen too many get caught in the snare.

In the meantime, you said,

Quote :

Gotta put my cards on the table on this since I think "normal" is the most toxic guise of the rebel angels. It's easy to deal with the more obvious.

Yes, I think so too. And that is more than enough to deal with.
Funny, I was watching a program of how such deviations in behavior
were traditionally addressed as a spiritual problem, up until the
20th century, with the big advent of psychology, and eventually
psycho pharmacopeia.