A verse to reflect on

" I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."-John 8:24

In context, Jesus speaking of the Father....if you do not believe that Jesus IS the Father what will happen to you? Jesus said you shall die in your sins. That's powerful language. Knowing that, would you still dispute the idea that Jesus IS the Father?

Trinitarianism or Oneness? Which are you, and does it agree with what Jesus said? You've all seen the illustrations, the ones that try to show us the "trinity". Does this verse contradict that view? If trinitarianism says Jesus is NOT the Father....then it does NOT agree with the scriptures.

Jem,

I think Trinitarian doctrine complicates it. Oneness is simple and scriptural.

onlyoneimage wrote:

Oneness is simple ...

That's easy for you to say. Your graphic does help clarify the concept though.

Well, the graphic is the way Trinitarian doctrine is portrayed...not oneness. Trinitarian doctrine says that the Father is NOT the Son. However, the bible says the Father and the Son are ONE. I posted the graphic to show how incorrect the idea of the trinity is. Trinitarian doctrine purports that God exists as 3 persons...rather than as one person. Yet the bible clearly says over and over that God is one. If you really want to know the truth about this, it is a hard subject to hear about...especially since we are almost all taught to believe Trinitarian dogma....I suggest reading the book "the oneness of God" by David Bernard. You can find an e-book of it for free online. He is a oneness Pentecostal, so please keep that in mind. I don't find him pushing Pentecostal doctrine in the book so much...but it's good to know where he is coming from because his view of salvation is very radical. I agree with oneness, and it is hard to come to that conclusion. What did it for me in the end?

"And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads."-Revelation 22:4

God's name shall be in their foreheads.

"And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done."-Revelation 22:6

The Lord God sent His angel.

"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."-Revelation 22:16

Jesus sent His angel.

How many names shall they have in their foreheads?

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."-Revelation 3:12

How many names will they have on them? 3? Nope.
"And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one."-Zechariah 14:9

"In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness."-Jeremiah 23:6

"In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our righteousness."-Jeremiah 33:16

When you understand that the name of God will be written upon the city...and that the name of God is ONE name...it is easy to understand that there will be ONE name written upon us.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."-John 1:1-3
"For thus saith the Lord(Yahweh in Hebrew) that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else."-Isaiah 45:18

Who is the creator? John says clearly that the word which became flesh was the creator God. Isaiah says clearly that the LORD(Yahweh) was the creator of all things. It uses Yahweh, and yet John says Jesus created. This can only mean they are one and the same person. HE created all things and without Him was not ANYTHING made that was made.

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."-Isaiah 9:6
Isaiah speaking of the messiah said that He would be called all of these things. This child which was born shall be called WONDERFUL, COUNSELLOR, MIGHTY GOD, EVERLASTING FATHER, PRINCE OF PEACE. If the Father is NOT the Son...then how can the Son claim the title of EVERLASTING FATHER? He cannot...and so we must realize that the Son is also the Father.

onlyoneimage wrote:

Well, the graphic is the way Trinitarian doctrine is portrayed...not oneness.

Oops!

Thanks for taking the time to share your study with us. It was very interesting to read and think about.

LOL! Jem, that's too funny.

The context does not at all indicate that Jesus is claiming to be the Father. In fact, it is just the opposite. He is claming to be God, but sent FROM the Father.


John 8

12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”

13 The Pharisees therefore said to Him, “You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true.”

14 Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going. 15 You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16 And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. 17 It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”

19 Then they said to Him, “Where is Your Father?”

Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also.”

20 These words Jesus spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one laid hands on Him, for His hour had not yet come.

21 Then Jesus said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come.”

22 So the Jews said, “Will He kill Himself, because He says, ‘Where I go you cannot come’?”

23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

25 Then they said to Him, “Who are You?”

And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.”

27 They did not understand that He spoke to them of the Father.

28 Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. 29 And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him.” 30 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him.

31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with[l] your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

48 Then the Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?”

49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50 And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges. 51 Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”

52 Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ 53 Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?”

54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your[m] God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple,[n] going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

unworthy,



Even if you do not think the context suggests that, do you still deny that Jesus is the Father?



"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

⁷ If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

⁸ Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

⁹ Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?"-John 14:6-9

Yes, Jesus is not the Father. That is correct.

Jesus there was not asserting that He WAS the Father, but rather, WAS LIKE the Father. He is "the exact REPRESENTATION of His Being." A representation is not the thing itself, but like the thing being represented.

The NKJV puts it this way:

Hebrews 1

1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, ² has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; ³ who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself^[a] purged our^[b] sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, ⁴ having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

⁵ For to which of the angels did He ever say:


“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?^[c]

And again:


“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?<sup>[d]

6</sup> But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:


“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”<sup>[e]

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Again, an image is not the thing itself.

Also, clearly there is a Father AND a SON. Not a Father OR a Son. Anything else defies logic and makes passages like the above unintelligible.</sup>



Here is a pretty good article on the subject. I'll have more later.

http://theresurgence.com/2010/06/22/sabellius-know-your-heretics

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."-Isaiah 9:6

Notice that this passage is about the coming messiah. It is about Jesus. What does it say HE will be called?



EVERLASTING FATHER.

I do want to say that I can respect how difficult this topic is for so many people. I grew up Trinitarian, I taught the trinity for a long time. So I understand how hard it is. I do feel it is important though to recognize that Jesus is the only image of God, and is the Father in the flesh.

From Athenagoras’ – A Plea for the Christians – Chapter 10

That we are not atheists, therefore, seeing that we acknowledge one God, uncreated, eternal, invisible, impassible, incomprehensible, illimitable, who is apprehended by the understanding only and the reason, who is encompassed by light, and beauty, and spirit, and power ineffable, by whom the universe has been created through His Logos, and set in order, and is kept in being—I have sufficiently demonstrated. [I say “His Logos”], for we acknowledge also a Son of God. Nor let any one think it ridiculous that God should have a Son. For though the poets, in their fictions, represent the gods as no better than men, our mode of thinking is not the same as theirs, concerning either God the Father or the Son. But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father, in idea and in operation; for after the pattern of Him and by Him were all things made, the Father and the Son being one. And, the Son being in the Father and the Father in the Son, in oneness and power of spirit, the understanding and reason (νοῦς καὶ λόγος) of the Father is the Son of God. But if, in your surpassing intelligence, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by the Son, I will state briefly that He is the first product of the Father, not as having been brought into existence (for from the beginning, God, who is the eternal mind [νοῦς], had the Logos in Himself, being from eternity instinct with Logos [λογικός]); but inasmuch as He came forth to be the idea and energizing power of all material things, which lay like a nature without attributes, and an inactive earth, the grosser particles being mixed up with the lighter. The prophetic Spirit also agrees with our statements. “The Lord,” it says, “made me, the beginning of His ways to His works.” The Holy Spirit Himself also, which operates in the prophets, we assert to be an effluence of God, flowing from Him, and returning back again like a beam of the sun. Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men who speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists? Nor is our teaching in what relates to the divine nature confined to these points; but we recognise also a multitude of angels and ministers, whom God the Maker and Framer of the world distributed and appointed to their several posts by His Logos…

++++++++

Jesus is from the Father, and of the Father, but He is not the Father.

So you deny Isaiah 9:6?

The statement posted seems reasonably accurate. Particularly when taken in the context of proverbs 8, which is the creation of the IMAGE of God...not the creation of the Son of God. For the Son of God has always been...but because God is invisible...He had to create an image to dwell in.

Is it correct to call Jesus the Everlasting Father as Isaiah said?

BTW: I love this subject.

a better translation for Isaiah 9:6 is Father of eternity, so God the Father is the spiritual husband of Israel...

isa54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

we the church are the bride of Christ, the Jew 1st, then the gentile(church) all pretrib saints, residing in the city of God...

Either way, still calls the messiah FATHER.

From Tertullian's - Against PraxeasChapter 10
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.v.ix.x.html


So it is either the Father or the Son, and the day is not the same as the night; nor is the Father the same as the Son, in such a way that Both of them should be One, and One or the Other should be Both,—an opinion which the most conceited “Monarchians” maintain. He Himself, they say, made Himself a Son to Himself. Now a Father makes a Son, and a Son makes a Father; and they who thus become reciprocally related out of each other to each other cannot in any way by themselves simply become so related to themselves, that the Father can make Himself a Son to Himself, and the Son render Himself a Father to Himself. And the relations which God establishes, them does He also guard. A father must needs have a son, in order to be a father; so likewise a son, to be a son, must have a father. It is, however, one thing to have, and another thing to be. For instance, in order to be a husband, I must have a wife; I can never myself be my own wife. In like manner, in order to be a father, I have a son, for I never can be a son to myself; and in order to be a son, I have a father, it being impossible for me ever to be my own father. And it is these relations which make me (what I am), when I come to possess them: I shall then be a father, when I have a son; and a son, when I have a father. Now, if I am to be to myself any one of these relations, I no longer have what I am myself to be: neither a father, because I am to be my own father; nor a son, because I shall be my own son. Moreover, inasmuch as I ought to have one of these relations in order to be the other; so, if I am to be both together, I shall fail to be one while I possess not the other. For if I must be myself my son, who am also a father, I now cease to have a son, since I am my own son. But by reason of not having a son, since I am my own son, how can I be a father?

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Tertullians whole book "Against Praxeas" is about the subject at hand. Here is the link to chapter 1. If anyone is confused about the subject, this would be good to read.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.v.ix.i.html

He really gets rolling in Chapter 2...

unworthy one has provided wonderful and thorough detail from scripture and church fathers; here is a link that also addresses the issue.

Blessings,
J
http://www.angelfire.com/planet/loveoneanothe//oneness.html

From Novatian's - A Treatise Concerning the Trinity - Chapter 26

But from this occasion of Christ being proved from the sacred authority of the divine writings not man only, but God also, other heretics, breaking forth, contrive to impair the religious position in Christ; by this very fact wishing to show that Christ is God the Father, in that He is asserted to be not man only, but also is declared to be God. For thus say they, If it is asserted that God is one, and Christ is God, then say they, If the Father and Christ be one God, Christ will be called the Father. Wherein they are proved to be in error, not knowing Christ, but following the sound of a name; for they are not willing that He should be the second person after the Father, but the Father Himself. And since these things are easily answered, few words shall be said. For who does not acknowledge that the person of the Son is second after the Father, when he reads that it was said by the Father, consequently to the Son, “Let us make man in our image and our likeness;”52105210 Gen. i. 26. and that after this it was related, “And God made man, in the image of God made He him?”

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More here:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf05.vi.iii.xxvii.html

Yeah, so Isaiah still calls Jesus the Father. Disprove that. That was the question. Is it okay to call the messiah the everlasting father, as Isaiah does?

It says He will be called everlasting Father. To say He is everlasting Father in some respect is one thing. To say that Jesus IS the Father is another. Huge many portions of Scripture just would not make sense if that were the case. And, the early church taught that Jesus and the Father were One under the Godhead, but distinct.

You can't build your Theology on one verse.

Isaiah's purpose was not to teach about the nature of Christ per se. There are other portions of Scripture that do, and they do not teach that He is the same as the Father.

See Murray's point above.

How can a father be his own son, and a son his own father?

The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool." – Psalm 110:1 (The Father talking to the Son)

6“Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion.”
7 “I will declare the decree:
The LORD has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession. – Psalms 2

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. – John 1:14

(The Father has a Son who he has begotten. The Father is UNbegotten. This Son is His chosen King)

Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness – Genesis 1:26a (Who is speaking, and who is He speaking to?)

The whole of Scripture only makes sense when we understand the nature of GOD to be the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Not the Father, OR, the Son, OR the Holy Spirit.

All three are co-eternal. All three are distinct, yet One (of one mind)

The Three have a relationship with one another. What you are proposing, onlyoneimage my friend, makes any kind of relationship between the Three merely an illusion.

The right hand is a jewish idiom meaning the extension of power. I'm not building my theology on one verse. In fact, it is the very essence of not doing that which leads me to believe that Jesus IS the Father. How can one be called the Everlasting Father and not be the Everlasting Father? Isn't that contradictory?



"Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

⁹ Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?"-John 14:8-9

"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."-Colossians 2:9

Jesus said when you have seen him...you have seen the Father. It is not possible to show us the Father apart from showing us Jesus. This is what Jesus said.

In Colossians, speaking of Jesus it says the FULNESS of the Godhead is in Him. Supposing that the godhead contains 3 main manifestations...the father, son and holy ghost....can the fullness of the godhead belong to Jesus unless He IS the Father and the Holy Ghost?

Grammatically in the Hebrew, it can be explained that Genesis 1:26 is God speaking to the angels(having been created before the earth according to Job). It can also be said that it is the Counsel of God speaking to Himself. It doesn't necessity multiplicity. Yet this is the primary verse used by Trinitarians to show multiplicity. Most other passages used to show multiplicity can be easily explained. Such as John 14, where Jesus tells us he will go away and yet that He will come to us in the form of the Holy Ghost. Are there multiple aspects of the godhead? Yes, absolutely. These are listed in Isaiah 9:6.

^" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

God manifests in many different ways, but the only Image of God is Jesus Christ. God shows His power to us in different ways, and yet it is through Jesus Christ that we see this occur. Whenever we see someone on the throne...it is ONE who is on the throne.

If you disagree with this, just ask this question: Who is sitting on the throne in the following passage?

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

⁴ And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

⁵ And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever."-Revelation 22:3-5

It uses multiple titles, expressing the multiple manifestations of God...and yet uses a singular pronunciation when dealing with the number of people sitting on the throne, and also singular name in their foreheads.

So, if they are separate...which one is sitting on the throne? Is it the Father, or is it the Son? Remember that it says the throne of God and of the lamb is in it. It is singular, yet expresses that the one sitting on the throne is both God and the Lamb.

"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."-Revelation 22:16

"And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done."-Revelation 22:6

Who sent His angel? Was it the Father, or the Son? They are the same...the Father and the Son are both Jesus.

"And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

¹⁴ His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

¹⁵ And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

¹⁶ And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

¹⁷ And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

¹⁸ I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."-Revelation 1:13-18

"And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.

²⁸ As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake."-Ezekiel 1:27-28

Obviously I can go on and on forever in this manner. Let me ask this to finalize it. How many kings will there be? Will there be 1, or 2 or 3? There will be one king. Identify that king...and you will have your answer as to whether the Father and the Son are ONE and the same.

Okay, one more.



"For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else."-Isaiah 45:18

The Lord(Yahweh) created the heavens and the earth. Is Yahweh Jesus, or is Yahweh the Father separate from Jesus?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

² The same was in the beginning with God.

³ All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."-John 1:1-3

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."-John 1:14

The word became flesh. Whatever created everything became flesh. Isaiah tells us that the Lord(Yahweh) created the heavens and the earth. John says Jesus created everything. This means that the Lord(Yahweh) became flesh, and manifested himself to us as Jesus.

So you say...
³² “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. - Matthew 10:32
The New Testament contains dozens of passages like the quote above in which Jesus is saying that He has a Father.
So, would you say He is being deceptive is such cases, or is He delusional, or just plain incorrect?
He is saying here that His Father is in heaven (at the time He is speaking). Jesus is standing on the earth.
What say you?

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared [Him]. - John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. - 1 John 4:12
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Your theology makes these verses false. If Jesus is the Father, then these statements do not make sense. In no way can it be true that no one has seen GOD at any time.

However, since Jesus is not the Father, though Jesus has been seen, the Father (who is a spirit and Who resides in heaven) has not been seen. Thereby John can rightly make the statement that no one has seen God at any time.

But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. - Rev 21:22
Notice there are clearly two here, not one.
Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. - Revelation 5:7
The Lamb (Jesus, who is not the Father) is taking a scroll out of the right hand of the one on the throne (who is the Father)

Ummm....no. Do you not believe that God is omnipresent and is everywhere? God has never been seen because He is invisible. That is why he had to CREATE an image to dwell in. That is what happened in proverbs 8. God created a physical manifestation to show to us. When we see an image of God...it is ALWAYS through Jesus.



Also, no you are wrong on Revelation 21:22. Does it says temple or temples? It says TEMPLE, SINGULAR. That means ONE.

Revelation 5:7 is also using symbolism to depict the perspective. It is saying that the lamb is the one who opens the scroll...the wrath of the lamb begins.

Once again, answer the question. How many thrones? Who is the king?

http://www.defendproclaimthefaith.org/GodsThrone.htm

Read the article. It is from a professed Trinitarian, but clearly shows the ONE king is Jesus....and the one image portrayed is Jesus. How can the bible say that the Father will dwell with us forever, but that Jesus will be king forever if they are different people? Is Jesus greater than the Father? Is the Son greater than the Father?

Redirect all you want. I believe in the OMNIPRESENCE of God. God is EVERYWHERE all the time. How can He be in heaven and on earth? Because He is invisible and omnipresent.

Let me finally clarify this and end it. While I personally believe that Jesus is the Father literally...just as Isaiah tells us, I can live with people thinking(incorrectly IMO) that they are different persons....as long as they admit that there is only one image of God, and that is Jesus. What I mean is, there isn't some "father" who is sitting on a literal throne, and Jesus is sitting beside Him. There is ONE image. You can depict the multiplicity of the godhead if you choose to do so...but to say there is more than one literal image of God, goes against the bible itself. The Father is invisible..and as the bible says NO MAN hath seen Him. Except of course where Jesus says that they have when they see Him(Jesus) in John 14.

So, to sum it up....believe in multiple persons...that might not be so completely incorrect, but Jesus is the only bodily image of God that we have.

I was not implying that there were two Temples. Just that there were two of the persons of the Godhead present in it, with the Father on the throne (in this case).

I can agree that Jesus is the only visible Image of God. I also agree that God is omnipresent.

Then [comes] the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.... For "He has put all things under His feet." [fn] But when He says "all things are put under [Him]," [it is] evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. - 1 Corinthians 15:24, 27-28

"To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. - Revelation 3:21

Question: If you agree that Jesus is the only visible image of God.....how is the Father represented when the throne of the kingdom is handed over?

I think there is a level of this that is very difficult. What you have stated is probably close enough, to where I can say it shouldn't be much of a theological barrier. What usually destroys the sound theology of a Trinitarian, is a false believe in multiple images of God. I don't think it is too far gone to say multiple persons of the godhead...though I disagree with that statement. It is more that there is only one image of God that we have that we can physically, visibly see...and worship and that is in Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians is a passage I used a lot as a Trinitarian. Until I reflected on it to understand that the passage itself is oneness related. If God be all in all....doesn't that mean that the Son and the Father and the Spirit are all together as one?

Maybe I watch and read to much sci fi but it's not too hard to imagine that Father God in his spirit form took out of himself a being that is himself but also his Son. Sort of a supernatural mitosis ...... Simplistic, but I don't have any problems with it.

We also have to acknowledge the relational aspect between the three. The Spirit was sent by and submits to the Father and Son. The Son was sent by the Father and submits to the Father. This is the consistent representation of each in Scripture. We never hear of the Father submitting to the Son. So there is a heirarchy of sorts.

But, the Son (or Logos, or Word) and the Spirit are not only from God the Father, but of God the Father.

An analogy that the early church used is that the Father is like the sun, and the Son and the Spirit are like rays of light from the sun. The sun (Father) is the source and the rays (Son, Spirit) are sent into the world to give it light.

The Son is the first of the Father's works. Not that He was created, but He was "brought forth" or "begotten".

unworthy,

I used to use the Sun as an analogy for the trinity. Until I realized the following problem:

Suppose God exists as the Sun. The part we see, is the light....and that light is represented in the Son, Jesus. The part we feel is the heat of the sun, which is the Holy Spirit. The part that makes it all work, is the chemical reaction....which is the Father. The sun is made up of those 3 components. However, none of those 3 components is the sun. They are only parts of the sun. The light is not the sun. The heat is not the sun. The chemical reaction is not the sun. Only together are they the sun.

The same is true of God. While Trinitarians teach that Jesus is God, but a separate person from the Father and Holy Ghost....it is contradictory to use analogies like the sun or an egg. God exists as one person. God is one. In order to say that Jesus is God...and that there is only one God....we must say that Jesus is the exhibit of all of the godhead.

I'm sure i'll never convince you. But it is refreshing to me if people would admit the singular image of God found in Jesus Christ. Still....no one answers my questions.

How many thrones? How many people visible on those thrones/throne? Who is sitting on them/it? That's the part that matters. Who is king to you? Is it Jesus?

Go farther. How can Jesus be the only name that saves if the Father is a different person of God? Why can't the name of the Father save as a separate person?

These are all complicated questions. My favorite is this commandment:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"-Matthew 28:19

Now, what name did the disciples use to baptize with?

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."-Acts 2:38

"(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)"-Acts 8:16

"When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."-Acts 19:5

Granted. An analogy using created things to attempt to explain the uncreated GOD will always fall short. However, this was the understanding and teaching of the early church, and if they held to a trinitarian view of GOD, then that is good enough for me.

As for your question of how many thrones, you have already dismissed the evidence against your view.

Scripture says that Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father. Now, if you choose to allegorize it ,that's your perogative. To me, it is quite clear.

As for Jesus being the name that saves, it is because the Father sent His Son to be the Saviour of the world. Jesus brought the Light of GOD's truth in to the world. It is He that stepped into time and he that the Father says we must place our faith in in order to be saved. The Son was sent on the authority of the Father.

Also, to say that one can't be saved apart from Jesus name is not accurate. If this were so, none could be saved prior to His advent, since His name was not known at that time.

I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one [The Father] who seeks it, and he is the judge. - John 8:50
Now if Jesus is in actuallity - The Father - as you assert, then is He not being deceptive here?

If He is seeking the glory of the Father, but says He's not seeking it for Himself, yet He is the Father...

And if Jesus is the Father, yet was praying to the Father, then He is really doing nothing more than putting on a show.

So many things like this in Scripture that do not fit with oneness theology.

And I don't think you ever answered the question of - Who is the "us" in "Let us make man in our image"

Jesus said baptize in the NAME...not NAMES of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The disciples used ONE name, Jesus Christ. You NEVER see them use any other name or multiple names to baptize with. This is confirmation that the NAME of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost IS Jesus. There is no argument of silence. There are multiple times that the name of Jesus is used within baptism...and yet no other name is EVER mentioned.

If you were going to follow His commandment....what names would you use? You cannot use the titles...because they are not names. Jesus said to use the name.

The early church defended against the errant belief that the
Father and Son were the same.

[color=orange]Hippolytus – Refutation of all Heresies – Book 10, Chapter 23

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf05.toc.html


But in like manner, also, Noetus, being by birth a native of Smyrna, and a fellow addicted to reckless babbling, as well as crafty withal, introduced (among us) this heresy which originated from one Epigonus. It reached Rome, and was adopted by Cleomenes, and so has continued to this day among his successors. Noetus asserts that there is one Father and God of the universe, and that He made all things, and was imperceptible to those that exist when He might so desire. Noetus maintained that the Father then appeared when He wished; and He is invisible when He is not seen, but visible when He is seen. And this heretic also alleges that the Father is unbegotten when He is not generated, but begotten when He is born of a virgin; as also that He is not subject to suffering, and is immortal when He does not suffer or die. When, however, His passion came upon Him, Noetus allows that the Father suffers and dies. And the Noetians suppose that this Father Himself is called Son, (and vice versa,) in reference to the events which at their own proper periods happen to them severally.

Callistus corroborated the heresy of these Noetians, but we have already carefully explained the details of his life. And Callistus himself produced likewise a heresy, and derived its starting-points from these Noetians,—namely, so far as he acknowledges that there is one Father and God, viz., the Creator of the universe, and that this (God) is spoken of, and called by the name of Son, yet that in substance He is one Spirit. For Spirit, as the Deity, is, he says, not any being different from the Logos, or the Logos from the Deity; therefore this one person, (according to Callistus,) is divided nominally, but substantially not so. He supposes this one Logos to be God, and affirms that there was in the case of the Word an incarnation. And he is disposed (to maintain), that He who was seen in the flesh and was crucified is Son, but that the Father it is who dwells in Him.[/color]

More in Chapters 5-7 of Book 9

You can argue about "name" vs "names" and "throne" vs "thrones".

The facts speak for themselves my friend.

You know unworthy....I have a lot of respect for some of the early church father's....but I would rather take the word of God as my guide and what the apostles themselves did. The apostles baptized in the name of Jesus. Jesus is the name of the father, son and holy ghost. Multiple passages prove this. You would have to ignore what they did. They NEVER used any other name in the bible itself when baptizing...and it NEVER says they used the archaic phrase "in the name of the father, son and holy ghost"...the way modern churches do. Jesus was clear...use the name. That's exactly what the apostles did.

Obviously we're never going to see eye to eye on this. That's cool, I can respect that. I respect you. I mean...you were telling me long ago that there was no pre-trib rapture...and now I believe in the pre-wrath rapture....so go figure right?

I ran across this video today and it was excellent. MESSIANIC ALERT though for any who may be offended by things like that. That said, this is a very knowledgable, in-depth teaching on the subject.



I'm going to be following these guys. I really like them.

onlyoneimage wrote:

You know unworthy....I have a lot of respect for some of the early church father's....but I would rather take the word of God as my guide and what the apostles themselves did. The apostles baptized in the name of Jesus. Jesus is the name of the father, son and holy ghost. Multiple passages prove this. You would have to ignore what they did. They NEVER used any other name in the bible itself when baptizing...and it NEVER says they used the archaic phrase "in the name of the father, son and holy ghost"...the way modern churches do. Jesus was clear...use the name. That's exactly what the apostles did.

Obviously we're never going to see eye to eye on this. That's cool, I can respect that. I respect you. I mean...you were telling me long ago that there was no pre-trib rapture...and now I believe in the pre-wrath rapture....so go figure right?

Well my brother, maybe you'll come around on this one as well

I too have used Scripture to support my position. I am merely using the ECF's to confirm the proper understanding of the Scriptures, because one can make the Scriptures say whatever they want (practically) if they select some verses here and ignore some there. I believe the early church was faithful to follow the teachings of the apostles as they had received them.

Peace my friend.

the word of God,jesus....is the only authority on this.not "church fathers"....that would be the same as relying on "pastors" of today
there is only one interpretation of scripture.....its only when people look at one verse only....or take it out of context that they come up with other meaning.....honest people can see what God is telling us.
and you have to look at the king James.....other versions are by people that wanted to put there on spin on the Word

moko wrote:

the word of God,jesus....is the only authority on this.not "church fathers"....that would be the same as relying on "pastors" of today
there is only one interpretation of scripture.....its only when people look at one verse only....or take it out of context that they come up with other meaning.....honest people can see what God is telling us.
and you have to look at the king James.....other versions are by people that wanted to put there on spin on the Word

Yes Moko, Jesus is the authority on Scripture. So, how do we know that Jesus is the authority on Scripture?

We know that through the writings that the Apostles left us, do we not?

Those same Apostles who left us the written record that we know as Scripture, also taught the churches that they established in person, often spending weeks, months or even years there.

Their verbal teaching was every bit as authoritative as their written teaching.

They passed on the teachings of Jesus (The WORD) and those they taught were also careful to preserve and pass on what they had received.

Since Jesus is not personally appearing before you or I, we have to rely on others to help us understand God's Word. That is why teachers are an important element of the church structure.

I think Irenaeus sums up the spirit of the early church leaders as it pertains to the preservation of the pure doctrine of Christ and the Apostles.

From Irenaeus' - Against Heresies - Book 1

". The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father "to gather all things in one," and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, "every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess" to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send "spiritual wickednesses," and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory.

2. As I have already observed, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although scattered throughout the whole world, yet, as if occupying but one house, carefully preserves it. She also believes these points [of doctrine] just as if she had but one soul, and one and the same heart, and she proclaims them, and teaches them, and hands them down, with perfect harmony, as if she possessed only one mouth. For, although the languages of the world are dissimilar, yet the import of the tradition is one and the same. For the Churches which have been planted in Germany do not believe or hand down anything different, nor do those in Spain, nor those in Gaul, nor those in the East, nor those in Egypt, nor those in Libya, nor those which have been established in the central regions of the world. But as the sun, that creature of God, is one and the same throughout the whole world, so also the preaching of the truth shineth everywhere, and enlightens all men that are willing to come to a knowledge of the truth. Nor will any one of the rulers in the Churches, however highly gifted he may be in point of eloquence, teach doctrines different from these (for no one is greater than the Master); nor, on the other hand, will he who is deficient in power of expression inflict injury on the tradition. For the faith being ever one and the same, neither does one who is able at great length to discourse regarding it, make any addition to it, nor does one, who can say but little diminish it."



From book 3 of the same:

"Call to mind then, the things which I have stated in the two preceding books, and, taking these in connection with them, thou shalt have from me a very copious refutation of all the heretics; and faithfully and strenuously shalt thou resist them in defence of the only true and life-giving faith, which the Church has received from the apostles and imparted to her sons. For the Lord of all gave to His apostles the power of the Gospel, through whom also we have known the truth, that is, the doctrine of the Son of God; to whom also did the Lord declare: "He that heareth you, heareth Me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth Me, and Him that sent Me."...