Will we love the darkness more than the Light?

I believe there is going to come a time, and that stone is already rolling that humanity will thirst for the true Word. I look for new avenues to open up in our thinking on prophecy and it's meaning from the way most see it today but very few will be listening. I believe there are very few who study prophecy or even care to read for themselves the scriptures and it will grow worse.

I see the very near future as a time when most will have given up looking for a return of Christ. This is why Christ will come as a thief in the night to [The World]. Christ will not come as a thief in the night to the elect,they will be awake in their minds. [The World] will be asleep in their minds because the great deception has put a seal on their minds. 

[The World] has swallowed the deception and will continue to swallow the flood of deception that is pouring forth out of Satan's mouth. The birth pains will intensify this act. Christ has a two edged sword that comes out of his mouth that is the True Word. Satan also has a word that pours out as a flood into [The World] and is a False word.

You can't ride the fence and be lukewarm. Many will believe they are serving Christ but will find out that Christ never knew them. I call these the politically correct group that believe they are standing up for Christ but can't keep from looking back at [The World] and [The Things of The World]. Remember Lot's wife and how she looked back. She couldn't give up [The World].


Matthew 7:21-23


Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?


And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.






Revelation 3:15-16


I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.


So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.






Luke 17:31-32


In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.





Remember Lot's wife.





When the Lightning meets from east to west and Christ is coming in a cloud don't look back or turn back, running to hide in the rocks and dens. We are to look up and lift up our heads because our redemption is drawing near. We are never suppose to turn and look away from the Light,but look toward the Light. 

Will we love the darkness more than the Light?


Luke 21:27-28


And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

don't be so scarce around here scaRZ.....you have posted 10 times in almost 7 years and you need to make yourself a place at the table here on the forum

I was a member many years ago on David Flynn's first forum. I used the name ScaR back then. I miss those days when David was around posting some of his thoughts. I will try making some time to join in more often. 

I would love getting into some deep subjects once again. I enjoy any study on The Bible and getting everyone's thoughts on a wide range of topics.

great!.....we'll all settle down shortly after a few folks get caught up and can make free time after dealing with in things in life....there are only about a dozen or so left....we'll get it together eventually,lol

very true and in todays world, lots of folks have opened doors and windows and did it deliberately

It’s good to hear from you again Scarz.

Sometimes (more than you care to know) we make agreements with very bad people without any knowledge of having done so. Though that can’t in reality be called an agreement, the “law” will uphold it. For instance, say there are certain actors out there who think that changing the color/pattern of our Mac desktops or social media icon(s) constitutes an agreement to a specific contract that you haven’t read, that is written in 4 point type, 50 pages long, with references to several volumes of books, each of which have references to numerous ancient statutes, all very cryptically written over generations.

That, supposedly, is an agreement and we do it all the time. So let’s say, i’m trying to adjust my icons to their proper specifications according to their laws to correct all the grievous errors caused by the so-called contract but their game is so esoteric, so complex and multi-layered that getting it all unravelled in time is exhausting and your health and overall life suffers from neglect. Tick, tick, tick. How do you get those kinds of demons out of your house? i’d really like to know.

i hope that made sense.

Just wondering and probably way off topic but . . . I have a book by Patience Prence titled Scars. Bought it eons ago. It's a tribulation story. I was wondering if you might have had anything to do with the book, Scarz?

https://www.amazon.com/SCARS-Amazing-End-Times-Prophecy-Christian-ebook/dp/B003XKNF1K

Good to be back around The Watcher Forum again guys. I hope we can get into some hard hitting topics. I'm someone that doesn't mind thinking outside the box. Most people seem to shy away from anything other than the mainstream.

No, Researcher the book has nothing to do with me. I've been around several forums over the years and just got so busy the last few years that I became mostly a lurker. Forums have just about died in this Tweeter age we live in.

just hang on until we get back grouped up,after the holidays, and such.....we have been hoping for a reversal of our nation and kind of got a bit offtrack and away from what we normally do, and i for one, am walking away from the political landscape again....i had hope, now?...not so much...by the way, scarz, have you ever read "the gods of eden" by william bramley?....look, i am not advocating his perspective and conclusion at all, but i am fascinated by how he take maybe 4 theories,biblical/pagan/scientific/gnostic and streamlines them in a way that does follow the biblical narrative and it makes sense.....there is an actual reading of the book on youtube for free....its a really interesting book

michael371 wrote:

just hang on until we get back grouped up,after the holidays, and such.....we have been hoping for a reversal of our nation and kind of got a bit offtrack and away from what we normally do, and i for one, am walking away from the political landscape again....i had hope, now?...not so much...by the way, scarz, have you ever read "the gods of eden" by william bramley?....look, i am not advocating his perspective and conclusion at all, but i am fascinated by how he take maybe 4 theories,biblical/pagan/scientific/gnostic and streamlines them in a way that does follow the biblical narrative and it makes sense.....there is an actual reading of the book on youtube for free....its a really interesting book

Michael I don't remember reading The Gods Of Eden. 

I'm not one that gets into the whole political thing. In my opinion it's just a waste of my time. Over the years I've seen some good forums become more about politics than anything else. I can certainly understand space for it but not drowned by it.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSobj4-zeNrxokV_tkgDWzQ

hey scarz, here is a teacher that ain't like yo' daddy's teachers !!!....listen to a few of his lectures when you get time....ima' thinks you'll enjoy them....he goes far deeper than anyone that i have ever heard....and keeps going

I listened last week to one of his teachings. I'm going to watch and listen to some more of his work when I get some free time.

One of my all time favorites is Dr. Michael Heiser. I highly recommend his book "The Unseen Realm".

read it right after it came out

One of my all time favorites is Dr. Michael Heiser. I highly recommend his book "The Unseen Realm".

Ditto that! Along with:


Supernatural: What the Bible Teaches about the Unseen World and Why It Matters
Reversing Hermon: Enoch, the Watchers, and the Forgotten Mission of Jesus Christ
The Façade (The Façade Saga Book 1)
The Portent (The Façade Saga, Volume 2)

I have 'all these in paperback. The Façade books are fiction - more like FACTION though. Sometimes you can get a truth across better using fiction to carry the message. One of these days I hope to see a Façade Saga volume three. Great books.

The church has blended into "The World" and "The World" has blended into the church.

"The World" came knocking at the church door and the church said, "Yes we can make room for that." Then it didn't take long before the door opened wider to "The World" and the things of "The World" and the church said "Yes we can live with that." In only a very short time frame the doors were wide open and you can't tell the difference between the church and "The World". 

"A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump." Galatians 5:9

There is the Holy Spirit and there is the Spirit of Antichrist. These are the two forces that are at war with one another. The Spirit of Antichrist can't be any part of the Church or it will crumble in pieces. The Spirit of Antichrist isn't only as some think,"Those who totally distance themselves from Christ and want nothing to do with him." The Spirit of Antichrist is a false spirit that replaces the Word of God with a counterfeit word.

People have fallen away and will continue to fall away from the truth.

Your comment is spot on ScaRZ . Many refuse to see because they love the world..

quick popin and then pop back out...scarz buddy, you are the gift that keeps on giving....i would love to sit and talk bible with you for as long as you could stay awake....here is something that i have wondered about and stephen chronister speaks about it....

https://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?subsetitem=2010&subsetcat=date&keyword=Stephen_A%2E_Chronister&SpeakerOnly=true&includekeywords=&ExactVerse=

go down to where it says "was judas a nephilim"....this is the first on this subject and i want to see if he carries it all the way back to genesis 11 and the establishment of babylon and the first attempt at a NWO....this dude is something else and i do believe the guy has it right...after at least a hundred lectures/teachings/sermons, i have not heard one single thing that i disagree with and bordercollie will tell you that is like finding a unicorn in her front yard.....

Bordercollie and Michael thanks for all your interest and feedback.

I listened and watched yesterday two of Chronister's videos on Adam,Eve,Satan and the Nephilim and he certainly got me thinking. I can't say I agree with everything but I did on several things. I will listen to the link above when I get some more free time.

Thank You....

Revelation 8:10-11


And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;


And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.



I once thought Wormwood might be a huge asteroid and it poisons a third of the drinking water and many people die. I now view this much differently and see this Wormwood as an (Angelic, Spirit Man,Messenger,Fallen One)=Great Star that comes to deceive. This Messenger will be seen as a great light burning like a lamp.

I think this Messenger will be the one to bring about a full blooming of apostasy. He will cause a third of the rivers and fountains of waters (One third of Believers in Jesus Christ) to fall away from the truth. They will become bitter,poisoned by the deception that this Messenger brings. They will die a spiritual death because they were deceived into believing a lie and give up the life in Christ that brings about eternal life.

 I can't help but think how this one third makes a flash back in time to The Adversary drawing one third of The Stars ( Angels ) of Heaven.

I believe these one third at one time were "Believers" now they have become apostate. A lot of Christians think they can not fall away........"I believe a Christian/Christians can fall away from the truth and therefore become apostate. They do not "Continue To Believe" The Truth. Once alive in Christ,now dead without Christ.

How is it possible for a person to truly not believe any longer in the truth and still be saved?

They  become wormwood and no longer are sweet flowing rivers and fountains of water because the Life of Christ is no longer in them. The bitterness and poison of deception has taken over. I certainly agree with scripture that Jesus Christ will never leave us or forsake us......"But I most certainly believe we as believers can choose to leave and forsake Jesus Christ." 

The great star burning as it were a lamp comes sometime after the third trumpet.

How is it possible for an asteroid to fall upon one third of "All the rivers and fountains of water that cover the entire earths surface?........."If we just take it literally word for word then this would be the case." 

How could something that huge hit earth without completely destroying the whole planet?

I think this Messenger brings about a bitter/poison (Wormwood) message of deception that causes men and women to fall away from The Truth.


I don't claim to have all the answers. All I do is share how I see it at this point in time.

i am inclined to agree with you...wormwood means "bitterness".....so if the "waters" were turned bitter, the water would have to have been sweet or at least palatable....John ate a book that that was sweet in his mouth and bitter to his belly....is it connected?....i have no idea but just a thought...also 1/3 of the earths population is catholic....prophetic symbolism take time to unravel

This brings to mind  the references of water , living water , in the Bible.. There's the woman at the well and this I picked up as a copy and paste: There are so many references to living water . And then at the cross... He thirsts.... ! why would He say that ! Water is much more than what is on the surface. Eyes getting wider ya'll !!  
"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 

Are you saying the water tower is full of bitter water because it's in green town? (i hate this game). i found out today that it's in Philadelphia too and is the central arch on the family tree/white house. So ScaRZ, i love reading your posts but why did you put your house in a box? 

Here’s a little legalese for you all (read it and weep some bitter tears):

O is: ø Ø (option/shift-option) - 1:00 & 7:00? Time no more? - Saturn - Turn back time? - you may need a flux capacitor Y. Ø is 10. John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but to steal, and to kill and to destroy. I can verify that because he's been up close and personal lately.

Saturn has rings like a phone. It is a cube ፨ which is 8 but there is a hidden 1 (maybe a pin Ø). It’s 7 to our eyes which are blind to the 8th. ∞ is like two balls or a bow or 7:oo if you put it together or 007 (2 ball cane) if it's backwards - beyond that, it looks a lot like the autist’s gray man face. 

i sure would like to put all of this far, far behind me and get on with my life, and i do mean my life.

If that all sounded like nonsense to you, i'd have to agree that it is. But i started out studying the laws behind our birth certificates about 3 years ago and that nonsense and pictograph language is where it led. If you think this is off topic for this thread, i assure it's not. The root of the beast is his language which may have something to do with the Tower of Babel. 

We are nothing more than a game these people play (how much they can take from you without your knowledge, sometimes it's worse) or the kind of game one serves - on a platter. i will have to seek out some of that life-giving water because, at this point, i'm feeling rather angry. i have learned much and it is not pretty. Nothing is what you were told it was and nothing is what it seems.

jem, nimrods NWO all spoke the same language, God confused it and they could no longer communicate using their original method....they developed symbolism to communicate, like you see in the modern babylonian mystery religions....all this weird,occultism goes back to genesis chapter 11

Don't worry ladies and gentlemen about things getting a little off topic. When the topic is about darkness and light......."That can cover a ton of thoughts and research in many different directions." 

I also love all your feedback to help carry things deeper aand deeper. This is what I really enjoy.


A warning from the prophet Isaiah........"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" (Isaiah 5:20)

ScaRZ wrote:

Don't worry ladies and gentlemen about things getting a little off topic. When the topic is about darkness and light......."That can cover a ton of thoughts and research in many different directions." 

I also love all your feedback to help carry things deeper aand deeper. This is what I really enjoy.


A warning from the prophet Isaiah........"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" (Isaiah 5:20)

scarz, kinda' looks like right now, don't it?....bizarro world for all to see...novus ordo seclorum time,maybe?....the ordo ab chao to follow,maybe?....Christianity of today is nothing more than a bastardized form of NT teaching and the babylonian mystery schools..."i will be >LIKE< the most High"....like means "similar to".  the confusion is such that the average chuch pew assplanter does not know the difference between the real Christ and the anti-christ...be back later after putting a door on the pumphouse

michael371 wrote:

jem, nimrods NWO all spoke the same language, God confused it and they could no longer communicate using their original method....they developed symbolism to communicate, like you see in the modern babylonian mystery religions....all this weird,occultism goes back to genesis chapter 11

Genesis Chapter 11 - Bankruptcy

Green is like the pale green horse from Revelation 6:8 - "death and hell". Green would be hell. In Isaiah 28 God is speaking to the drunkards of Ephraim who apparently made an agreement with death and hell:

15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: ...
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Anyway, even though i don't know you guys (really), i decided to dump the water tower. It's in Ypsilanti, Michigan and here's a photo:



The following picture is the one is saw in Philly. Do you see the E over the tower in Philly? Well, the weird thing is, the Ypsi tower is at EMU whose colors just happen to be green.



And, finally, this is an ad i've been getting since i clicked on the water tower. I don't yet know where to find the good water but i'm thinking it will probably be in the Book of Micah.

I do not take the road a large number of people do in thinking Babylon the Great written about in The Book of Revelation is "only" The USA,NYC,Rome or a rebuilt Babylon of Iraq.

Let me drop this in and you will begin to see where I'm going. New Jerusalem as written about in Revelation 3:12 and 21:2 is God's heavenly city (Heavenly). Remember that The Bride of Christ is symbolized as the New Jerusalem in Rev. 21:9-10.

Babylon the Great is however the worldly city ( Earthly) of dark forces. In Revelation 18:2 we can see...."Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird."

Babylon the Great is inhabited with demons and the hold(prison,cage) of every foul/unclean spirit. This earth is their cage(prison)that holds them. This Wordly/Earthly habitation is symbolically described as MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


Two Cities:


The New Jerusalem........"The Virgin Bride" 

Babylon the Great.........."The Great Prostitute"


The Virgin Bride awaits her Bridegroom. She is not seduced,she is not deceived.

The Great Prostitute is the seductive nemesis who beds the kings and nations.


You can very quickly see Babylon the Great isn't just one location. As Revelation 17:1 reads........"Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:"

Now we will see what the "Waters" symbolize in Revelation 17:15........"The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."


The people of this earth have been intoxicated by what she offers. Mankind lust after her. She seduces all our senses that lead to spiritual blindness.

Revelation 17:2........"With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication."

Revelation 17:8........"And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

I don't believe the woman is only a false religion as many hang their hats on. She symbolizes a system of religion,politics,education,and the financial. Mammonism really rules the roost if you get my drift.

Who or what do we serve,where is our hearts,where is our love.

The words of Jesus Christ ring loud and clear........"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."(Matthew 6:24)

Once again I mention the two cities. The New Jerusalem where the Called Out Ones lay up their treasure (Spiritual Wealth) in heaven (Heavenly). Babylon the Great where those "Of The World" lust after Mammonism (Earthly,Worldly Treasure).

God........"The New Jerusalem,The Virgin Bride"

Mammon........"Babylon the Great,The Great Prostitute"

Jesus Christ went straight to the heart with his words........"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever." (1 John 2:15-17)

Is our treasure in the Heavenly or the Earthly,Worldly?

In The Garden, Eve was seduced by the lust of the flesh,the lust of the eyes,and the pride of life.

Genesis 3:6........"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

good for food........"lust of the flesh"

pleasant to the eyes........"lust of the eyes"

desired to make one wise........"pride of life"


One last thing........Jesus Christ was referred to as the last Adam (New Adam). After his resurrection he received a resurrection body and became a New Adam. The Bride of Christ will then be the New Eve reborn in Christ. The Bridegroom (New Adam) marries The Bride (New Eve).

root canal today, so i will reply tomorrow....i am a firm subscriber to there being 2 babylons, a literal babylon, and a spiritual babylon....i'll read your post carefully tomorrow

A “transgression” is when the water (jurisdiction) encroaches over the land (jurisdiction). The jurisdiction of the sea is a fictious layer of rules (statutes, acts, policies) placed over the land (jurisdiction, God’s natural law). Land and soil are not the same. Our bodies are the soil (home of the soul).

When you say, “Foul spirits and cages” it reminds me of chicken coops and France but i agree, Babylon is something spread like a web over the world. i see 2 Babylons falling in Jeremiah 50 & 51. Jerusalem is Jeremiah 52. Where the root of Babylon is i couldn’t say for sure. It would be an interesting study.

here is how i see things, and i won't re-quote the scripture because i am lazy and rather fumble-minded at times.....like i said, there has always been two babylons, a literal kingdom such as nebechunezzar was the head of, and then the genesis 11 "mystery babylon"....mystery babylon is the religion of nimrod,semirimis and tammuz or better stated" mithraism" as in sun worship,and all false religions came from here.....this evolved through countless centuries into paganism which the hebrews seemed to not be able to stay away from due to being surrounded by it...phonecia,canannite culture,rome,greece,etc all contributed to the false religion.....this went down history,century by century, all cultures different, yet the same....the religious hierarchy of ancient IS-RA-EL, after the babylonia captivety brought back those pagan customs,mixed them and the laws of hammarobi with the Law of Moses into a mismash of a religion that Christ called them out for....they did it in secret, or formed a secret religion, or "secret society" and from this came both the "oral tradition"or the talmud and the "kabbalah".....so this "judaism" of today is nothing more than a middle eastern/hebraic version of mithraism....keeping this short as i can, the seat of false religion, RIGHT NOW, is in rome....take gander at all of the pagan shit that the anti-christ wears, all of the pagan customs, some of which "modern Christianity?" has lovingly adopted... who bends the knee to kiss the old bastards ring?....every damn world leader on the globe, the kings, the rich men, errrrrybody but folks like you and me,thats who....the vatican is intertwined with every nation, both in religious heresy and, most importantly to the world, FINANCIAL!....some day when you get time, just through the NT and find the "don't do's" and write them down.....then look at catholic catchems,customs,traditions and what rituals they perform...dead down on em"....at some point, the center of the world religion will move to jerusalem with THE anti-christ stepping into the picture...so, we are not too far apart on that

literal babylon is representative of the nation/empire that rules the world....egypt/assyria/babylon/greece/med-persian/rome are all referred to in bible as "babylon" either literal or symbolically....there is a 7th that will continue for a short space or time( 200 years compared to kingdoms of antiquity is a short time)and i do think america is the 7th....there is an 8th that is of the 7....the great debate is "does this mean it is from all 7 or just the 7th head".....i don't know.....i don't think it matters because they all have one thing in common, there is a whore riding on each and every one....eventually, all will move to jerusalem to set the stage for the final conflict....the false religion started by the false resurrection of nimrod into his son tammuz, with the woman, representative of nimrods wife, becoming the queen of heaven and the beginning of goddess worship being incorporated into the pagan belief system...now, where you find that today?....mary,mary quite contrary, yep....we ain't too far apart, though....interesting meaning of the word jerusalem....God put His name on it....while i am not a hebrew scholar(english is hard enough)"Jehovah Jireh Shalom"=the Lord will provide Peace!...i do kinda' disagree about new jerusalem being the bride of Christ though....that one for later....i done typed enough for one day...now to go back fix the 100 or typos that i know are in here....scarz, i could do a better job of spelling thisout, but as astute as you are, you will figure it out...i'm an old ass man

michael371 wrote:

i do kinda' disagree about new jerusalem being the bride of Christ though.

Michael you bring up some things that I've studied for years and I will lay out some of my thinking little by little. 

This is a good verse below and is the reason I say The New Jerusalem is The Bride of Christ. Of coarse it is filled with The Body of Christ (The Church)......"This is his Bride,he is The Bridegroom." The Church is a virgin bride because of the washing away of sin by The Blood of Christ.

Revelation 21:2

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

scarz, you are fantastic!...you know, i have spent over 4 decades chasing biblical rabbits down holes and i never let that sink in and take hold....i always was told that the bride of Christ was the Church but have been caught up in the debate about who,what,where....its right there in black and white....irrefutable evidence....scarz, i couldn't see the forest for the trees, and while i always knew that the bride would be some form of followers of the Lord, i never,ever saw this for what it was....you da' man,dude....we need to fix you up some kind of "bat signal" so you can notify us when you get a thought or revelation!

Yes !!  I agree with Mike.   To me , a novice and  almost caught in the web jem mentioned,  , I always believed , but was  a part of the "eyes glazed over" crowd in my early days.   Not anymore though ! Eyes getting wider each day!   Wow. Great members here !!!!!!

sound,proper and correct doctrine are important in studying the bible, but there is so much more in there than just doctrine.....the church we went to and were/still are members of had sound,correct and proper doctrine and not much else...oh, they took the "timothy principle stance" on the rest of the bible in that it was using pauls advice to tomothy to use in his young preaching career to "when in doubt, preach Christ," which great, but after a while, folks need to be told the whys,whats,when and wheres to go with those things...now, i guess that is the easy,safe way to go, but it leaves way too many gaps and holes in the story....what few people grasp now ( mainly due to c.i. schofield,in modern times,and his so-called reference bible) is the the entire OT is about a hidden Christ...every single thing is a covert referral to the death,burial and resurrection of a Messiah/Savior.....very few people recognize it on their own and i had to be shown myself.....now, the salvation process was finished by "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"....its over!....the NT is a revealing of the hidden Christ of the OT....this is why i like stephen chronister so much....he is laying the truth out there brick by brick, one week at a time....there were some things  that he said that i didn't,at first go along with, but he is slowly bring me around to making a few tweaks in my own understanding, and the truth is all about understanding or wisdom....i guess thats why old people are/should be wiser than young folks,lol, we have had enough time to make all of the mistakes and learn from them....sometimes, old folks can learn from a toddler,too....you know, it is strange to me that a man like william bramley who is (gods of eden author)highly educated, very intelligent and perceptive, who possesses a large amount of secular based knowledge of the bible,yet he cannot understand the idea of an Almighty, triune God....but he does perceive that here is a dualing, supernatural battle between good/evil entities which he assumes is the ancient alien philosophy with a seasoning of secular humanism sprinkled in....both sad and fascinating at the same time

yep,scarz, i am of the same mind as you about the 4 horsemen, not that it won't be repeated in the tribulation....there is a 7th day adventist named walter veith, who was a history professor from south africa, and he does a great job of laying out revelation in a historical setting...now, i damn sure am not advocating 7th day adventists theology at all, just his lectures on historical,prophetic time lines....yep,scarz, i am walking away from a lot of things....
 
this is not a rant, more of a confession i suppose....know what?....i have really come down to a simple truth, after all of the books, the video's,the churches,the audios,the preaching,the teachings,the truths,the lies and deceptions, and on and on, that truth is found in Doves signature on her post from 1 John 4:4  that reads:
                               

Michael.....You are so right about the OT. It is really sad that some won't preach and teach the OT. The Adversary certainly knows how to deceive people into closing off section after section with his sting. This reminds me of the scorpion and the mighty sting of poison......"Once the sting and injection takes place the poison will leave the victim defenceless."

The Adversary's main goal is winning the war for every human mind. When the mind is taken every part follows. The control then becomes as simple as throwing a switch. The main thing to remember is if you are being deceived......."You don't know you are being deceived."

aight, 1 john 4:4, in my opinion, could be one of the most revealing passages in the bible to peel back the layers on....modern traditional Christianity ( broad brush strokes used, most not all ) says that the Holy Spirit draws men/women to God for salvation and indwells them after conversion....i don't think it works like that at all....NOTICE, i said "i think"....i'm kinda' working on something concerning that....if one reads the creation story, the breath that God breathes into man is an important consideration when you look at 1 john 4:4....it appears, at least to me, that after the corruption by satan took place, this spirit went dormant and had to be "regenerated and made alive".... the prefix "re" obviously means to do again or do over....so what was "generated" in the first place that had to be regenerated?...i submit that it was that spirit that God breathed into adam that allowed him and his wife to commune with God....i have already discussed my ideas that God planted His own (dna/life) into adam, or He made adam in his own image....kinda' like the expression "spittin' image" of a child that looks like his daddy...its my contention that satan corrupted the dna of mankind with his own....sin/corruption is inherited from generation to generation, parents to child....never have to teach a cild to be bad, he automatically knows how, you have to teach them to be good....then concerning dna, "the seed of the woman" we all understand to be birth lineage of Jesus/Yeshua from eve to mary...interesting fact about a womans dna other than chromosomal differences, there is another trait...its called mitochondrial dna and is only carried from mother to daughter to grandaughter and down each generation and does not go to a male...."seed of the woman?"....we have all of these people that read this forum that never post, just stay in the "visitor" category...join and type something....come on

Michael.....Your post above got me thinking about a subject that someone ask me about a few years back. 

Is it possible that some day,or is it already a reality that a change to our genetics will enable humans without God in the mix to bring about immortal life?

In other words humans will have the possibility to be as Adam before the fall......"This is how the question was ask to me."

Remember as Adam's body was formed from the dust,we also are dust. Once the fall took place something was taken from Adam and he was no longer the same...."He became just a  mortal man." The dust he was would return to the ground from which it was taken.

Every time I think of this I can't help but think of The Tower of Babel. Attempting to make a name for themselves and the quest to reach where God is........"Without God".

Look at it this way......."If Eve and Adam had never eaten of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil they would have remained in an immortal body?"

Is it possible that eating of The Tree of Life that brings about eternal life is a higher stage and therefore different than that of a lower stage of immortal life?

Humans are just mortal men/women and are at the lowest stage.  Is it possible that the man of sin (The Antichrist) will be someone/something much different than a mortal man?
Could this be a part of The Mark that would cause mortal men/women to be very scarce in the end times by corrupting their temples (Bodies)?

KJV
Isaiah 13:12........"I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir."

NASB
Isaiah 13:12........"I will make mortal man *scarcer than pure gold And mankind than the gold of Ophir."


If Adam and Eve had never eaten from either The Tree of Life or The fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would they remain alive to this day?

We know from scripture that the curse of the death of Adam and Eve came into the picture after they ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Was Adam and Eve eating of The Tree of Life before they took and ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,or had they never eaten from The Tree of Life at all? 

In scripture it never tells us if they ever ate of The Tree of Life. All we know is that after the fall they were kept away from it.

I will go back to this question again.......

If they had never eaten of The Tree of Life and never took and ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, would they be alive today as they were?

Just like in the legend of the vampire who is immortal,he/she lives in a physical body but the body can be destroyed  only by certain means. But without any aging process,sickness or decay to his/her physical body they will live an immortal life until certain conditions are brought about to destroy them. They have an immortal body not an eternal body.

These are just some of my thoughts on the subject. I'm not saying I'm setting this in stone. These were only some thoughts I gave feedback to the person that ask me the question years ago.

The Man...Adam was formed as a mortal man and was given a spiritual side that made him immortal. The Man...Adam was never housed in an Eternal Body at that point in time.


Three steps: 

Mortal+Spiritual=Immortal


Three bodies in the steps of events to unfold by taking and eating of The Tree of Life:

Mortal...Immortal...Eternal.


Just to carry this a touch further......

The very same question could be ask of The Adversary. We know he was a created being that was different than man,but was he only created immortal......."Not eternal?" If he is to be blotted out one day and be totally destroyed, then he was "Never" created eternal was he? How can anyone or anything be Eternal without Jesus Christ (Which I believe Jesus Christ to be a symbol of The Tree of Life)?

scarz, chronister is saying what you are saying...scroll down to past 1 of his joel series and work up....
http://www.cliffside.org/sermons/
my fingers hurt and ima' chillin' down today....it would bebetter if i used all of them but i only can use 4...typing with more than 4 always turns into chinese

scarz, i just now noticed your photo avatar....does it infer what i think it does?....if it does, spill it/admit it and lets go back to the garden because i am convinced of it

michael371 wrote:

scarz, i just now noticed your photo avatar....does it infer what i think it does?....if it does, spill it/admit it and lets go back to the garden because i am convinced of it

What is it you think it infers?

http://freedomfromdelusion.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-nachash-in-garden-of-eden.html

michael371 wrote:

http://freedomfromdelusion.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-nachash-in-garden-of-eden.html

Gotta love Dr. Michael Heiser. I've learned so much from him.

scarz, lets just say that david ickes ideas and mine are different, but the concept is the same...they walk among us

Michael...... my avatar to me..... "flesh will return to dust carried away of the wind,but this isn't the end of the story as a flash of light brings about a rebirth." Take off the old,put on the new.

researcher wrote:

michael371 wrote:

http://freedomfromdelusion.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-nachash-in-garden-of-eden.html

Gotta love Dr. Michael Heiser. I've learned so much from him.

David Flynn 2003 Roswell Conference Panel Discussion.
 With Michael Heiser and Richard Hoagland 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5iGMjWfyf0

ScaRZ wrote:

We have lived our lives with tribulations. It's all part of our existence. We've never been a part of an age without tribulations. I do not believe as most view the four horsemen. Most see them beginning their ride as the final seven years of Tribulation/Great Tribulation ring in.

I believe they have been galloping for a long time,but the birth pangs will intensify as we move closer,and closer to the return of Jesus Christ.


Over the last several years I've moved away from the mainstream evangelical protestant view of the four horsemen.

I believe Jesus Christ began breaking The Seven Seals soon after he ascended into heaven. This is how I view it at this point in time.

None of the seals could have been broken until Jesus Christ was born into this age,died for our sins,was buried,rose from death by Resurrection,ascend to heaven,and The Holy Spirit was poured out into the earth. 

When the seven seals began to be broken and the four horsemen began to ride it was all a great sign that Jesus Christ would one day return as King of kings, and Lord of lords.

It will not take The Antichrist himself to arrive on the scene before the first seal is broken and the White Horse begins to gallop.

With the first seal broken and The White Horse going forth to conquer, all the other Three Horses will swiftly follow with their plagues. That is what always has and always will follow when the True Voice is rejected and man follows a False Voice.

I see the White Horse representing false christian messiahs,false christian prophets,false christian doctrines that claim to represent The Truth,carrying an "Instead Of" or "Replacement" doctrine/doctrines and conquer others with it/them. There's always much more to conquest than just war alone.

Matthew 24:4-5......."And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you."......."For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."

The Apostle Paul echoed the Lord's warning when he spoke these words from Acts Chapter 20. Jesus Christ had already ascended to heaven and the Holy Spirit had been poured out into the earth.

I believe Paul's warning is that of the first seal broken and The White Horse is starting it's ride into the world. The First Seal has been broken and the wolves in sheeps clothing are about to move in. When Paul says "Take Heed" he is crying out a warning......."Therefore Watch."


Acts 20:28-31

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.


For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.


Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.


Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

These false messiahs,false prophets,false doctrines that claim to represent The Truth (Jesus Christ) will spread out into the whole world and cause a great famine of The True Word of The LORD. The White Horse leads and the other Horses follow.

When Jesus Christ started breaking the seals. I see it in the same light as a woman who is pregnant and soon a birth will occur. Just like a baby will soon come as the birth pains grow with more intensity, so to will be the signs of Jesus Christ coming back to earth. I see the first four seals (The Four Horsemen) as the beginning of sorrows (Just the beginning of the birth pains).

I see the events being played out in the seals as a prophetic divine warning to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. We are to watch,we are to warn.

In the Old Testament Book of Jeremiah we can get a great picture of what happened back then and how the picture of the first four seals....."The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse" can be seen for what they represent from the symbolic language of The Book of Revelation.

God would send his prophets,their words would be rejected and what followed was turning away from truth, following false gods-false prophets,war, famine and pestilence. I can certainly see the picture of the White,Red,Black and Pale Horsemen of the Apocalypse in the verses of Jeremiah below.


Jeremiah 14:10-12

Thus saith the LORD unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the LORD doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins.


Then said the LORD unto me, Pray not for this people for their good.


When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.


Now be sure and look very closely what verses 13 thru 15 have to say about the false prophets that were never sent from God and the deception they were spreading. A false message to sugar coat the real deal. Sounds just like what the serpent was pushing in the Garden doesn't it?


Jeremiah 14:13-15

Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them, Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.


Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.


Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed.