Will we love the darkness more than the Light?

Jesus Christ said those that endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. We must endure in the faith,not give up, give in, or in any fashion choose a different path.

 I like the way Michael Heiser worded it in one of his articles.


Michael Heiser wrote:

In light of all this, someone will surely ask, “Do you believe someone can lose their salvation?” or “Are believers eternally secure?” I really don’t like the way the question is framed since, for me, it does not capture what Scripture teaches. By way of response, I’d rather ask the asker which one of these propositions they would deny:



Everyone who believes the gospel will be saved, by grace and not by any merit of their own.

Everyone who believes the gospel will be eternally secure.

Everyone who does not believe the gospel (rejects it) will not be saved, regardless of works.

Everyone who does not believe the gospel will not be eternally secure.




Someone might ask, “Can someone who believed stop believing — and if they did, what would that mean?”

Same response: Which one of these propositions would they deny:



Everyone who believes the gospel will be saved, by grace and not by any merit of their own.

Everyone who believes the gospel will be eternally secure.

Everyone who does not believe the gospel (rejects it) will not be saved, regardless of works.

Everyone who does not believe the gospel will not be eternally secure.

I'm going to place this in here because I don't want for things to maybe get off topic on the other thread.

*********************

Dove wrote:

 What do you think?  Will we have to wait to see a physical, earthly division of the nations?   I suppose so, but I'd be happy if we did not have to wait.
AND, is it Agenda 21 that talks about the same 10 divisions?

I think Revelation 17 reads as if The Antichrist will not be the one to divide these land masses into 10 regions. These 10 Kings appear to be united and in full agreement with one another and will give all their authority and all their power of influence to The Antichrist.

We also know by reading Revelation 17 that these 10 beings are not Kings over these 10 regions "Until" The Antichrist gives them each one of the 10 regions as their Kingdom.

These 10 Kings as well as their Kingdoms and The Antichrist are the ones that make war with Jesus Christ as he returns to this earth.

The Antichrist is the Ultimate Ruler over these 10 Kings as all 10 lay all power at his feet. The Antichrist is to them The King of Kings and The Lord of Lords.

All of this is meant to be because as we read........Revelation 17:17...."For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."


Are these 10 Kings something more than pure flesh and blood humans?......."I think it could be possible but I'm not sure at this point in time.

Dove......I most certainly do not believe God will pour out his wrath on true believers and followers of our Lord Jesus Christ. I believe during these days a mark and a seal will divide the two sides. There will be no fence riding......."In other words no gray area." 

Think of it much like the flood in the days of Noah. A seal of protection from The Wrath of God was for those on The Ark. 

A mark was also placed on all those outside the protection of The Ark as The Wrath of God was poured out on them.

All those on The Ark rode out The Wrath of God but all those outside were taken away of the flood. I see the end times very much in the same light.

I think most don't really want the truth,they want Jesus to fit in their little world.

If scripture is corrupt in places........."How would we know which verses aren't corrupt and which are?" Man attempting to figure that out would be exactly what The Adversary has planted in their minds. Everybody would just go in and say,"I like this,I believe this is good scripture....."Lets keep it!! But man this right here I just don't like this at all......"Lets just trash this."

Then there is the others that the words of scripture offend them......."Well now this offends me and just doesn't sound like what I think God would be like"......"Lets throw these verses out!! If it gets to the point where man decides if verses stay in or deleted out,the end is very close my friends. We have new version of the Bible coming out all the time and some are just watered down versions.

It will soon be where a minister,teacher or just a guy like you and I won't be able to say anything that doesn't offend someone. If you read from the Bible you will have to skip over or duck certain words that offend people. Very,very sad days we are now living in. The Man of Sin can't be too far out into the future.

ScaRZ wrote:

Dove......I most certainly do not believe God will pour out his wrath on true believers and followers of our Lord Jesus Christ. I believe during these days a mark and a seal will divide the two sides. There will be no fence riding......."In other words no gray area." 

Think of it much like the flood in the days of Noah. A seal of protection from The Wrath of God was for those on The Ark. 

A mark was also placed on all those outside the protection of The Ark as The Wrath of God was poured out on them.

All those on The Ark rode out The Wrath of God but all those outside were taken away of the flood. I see the end times very much in the same light.

scripture is clear: the wrath of God occurs at the moment of the return of Christ, right after the rapture which happens at the sound of the 7th trumpet.....revelation 11:15

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.



17

Here's a question some seem to take for granted and give answers that are false and most certainly not in The Bible.

When I pray who do I pray to?

Pray not to the Son, Pray not to an Apostle, Pray not to the many Saints, Pray not to Mary.... Pray to the Father.




And ask in Jesus Christ name.

fantastic sermon

Evil comes in all nationalities. Some attempt to package it a little different,but evil is still evil. Just because the physical eye can be blind to outward window dressing doesn't mean a wolf isn't below the surface. "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

I certainly have never believed in constructing horrible behavior to bring about the Return of The Lord Jesus Christ.

I've been called many names because I "Firmly" stand in the Revelation of The Lord Jesus Christ. The Book of Revelation carries with it a "Blessing" for those who read and hear it's prophecy,and keep those things written therein.


Revelation 1:3........"Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."


I believe "ALL" Prophecy within The Revelation of The Lord Jesus Christ "Will be fulfilled to the letter". This ticks a lot of people off for some reason and they then want to brand me as evil. If that's being evil,then I thank The Lord they view me as they do.
 
Things are going to occur that aren't sugar and spice and everything nice. It's coming and humans need to stop covering their heads and putting their fingers in their ears.

There are enough of those running around playing the politically correct game. I've never been one of them and I pray I never will be. 

 The birth pangs are here and will grow stronger as time unfolds. A deception has been in the mix for thousands of years,but it will intensify as we draw closer to "The Return".

All humanity has lived their lives with tribulations. It's all part of our existence. We've never been a part of an age without tribulations. I do not believe as most view the four horsemen. Most see them beginning their ride as the final seven years of Tribulation/Great Tribulation ring in.

I believe they have been galloping for a long time,but the birth pangs will intensify as we move closer,and closer to the return of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is the one breaking the seven seals by which the first four are the horsemen. As Jesus Christ said....."Think not that I am come to send peace on earth:I came not to send peace, but a sword."

Jesus Christ himself tells us his message would not unify humanity,but it would cause division. The sword is the very words spoken by Jesus Christ that must divide humanity. He must separate his true followers from and out of The World.

every day, shit gets crazier and crazier....i think we had better strap it up and lock it down.....from all indications, the non-elect are being turned over to a reprobate mind, and the "rulers of this world" have crawled out from under the rocks.....have the spawn of the watchers reappeared?...."the days of noah?"...."the times of Lot?"....i have not quite went out on the limb yet, but i am sitting on it and seeing how far i am off of the ground

Michael......This world is indeed a mess and sad to think it but we here at the watcher forum understand it's not going to get better until the final curtain is closed. Hold on because it's going to be a bumpy ride.

Here is something I don't believe a lot of people think about.

The gospel message is for all eternity and it affects more than just humans. 

Heaven was at one point "Perfect".The angels as well as all the host of heaven were created in a perfect world but as rebellion enter the picture heaven was no longer perfect (War in Heaven). Sin arose among the ranks once they decided to "Experience Evil". 

Once heaven was stained by sin there can be only one way to truly cleanse it. 

Revelation 21:1........" And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

No more sea.. as in people ..

ScaRZ wrote:

I do not believe as most view the four horsemen. Most see them beginning their ride as the final seven years of Tribulation/Great Tribulation ring in.

I believe they have been galloping for a long time,but the birth pangs will intensify as we move closer,and closer to the return of Jesus Christ.

Some believe that many of these things have already passed. Some believe they will be events in the future. i see both as true, a past fulfillment (as in the 7 churches) and an end of the road fulfillment as in a repeat of the types of the 7 churches. The same applies to other concepts as well.

Watch the horses and watch the skies. They correspond with each other. The heavens are God's timepiece. i do believe we are only waiting on the pale green horse at this point in time and that there will be around 3.5 years left when we reach the 6th/7th seal.

EDIT: Actually we haven't really seen the 2nd or 3rd horses in their full power yet. We've just been seeing the set up for them.

i am firmly in your corner with this...........................jem said:
"Some believe that many of these things have already passed. Some believe they will be events in the future. i see both as true, a past fulfillment (as in the 7 churches) and an end of the road fulfillment as in a repeat of the types of the 7 churches.

bordercollie wrote:

No more sea.. as in people ..

Good question! This is a question that will get several different answers.

I believe the sea in The Book of Revelation are the waters that represent peoples,nations,multitudes and tongues. The Beast rises up out of this as well as The Whore sits on them. 

I have thought the sea of peoples,nations,multitudes and tongues are of coarse in turmoil or confusion like the sea and the waves roaring. I believe when the final curtain is drawn there will be (no more sea)......."No more turmoil or confusion, only an eternal peaceful condition among all who are part of eternity."

scarz, garden planted!!!....now, maybe i can get back to this thread with something worthwhile....i am not one that gets shocked by too much, but even i am taken aback at the level of degenerate behavior that has turned up this week...its like a nihilist and a reprobate had sex resulting in a pregnancy and this is the baby.....the level of insanity has been upped.....now, think:...the timing of the absurdity ( i know it was bad always but not like this) seemed to coincide with the ramping up of CERN....did something cross over a through a  tear in the barrier that brought this behavior out in the open?....i know the Restrainer is being removed for all of this to be allowed, but DAMN, its crazy weird and THIS IS NOT BASIC HUMAN BEHAVIOR!!!....man is depraved and until he is regenerated and made alive(born again) into a new creature, he will run from God and hide, do drugs,chase whores, close his eyes every time he passing a church,etc, but he ain't going to split his pecker and make a va ja ja out of it!!!!!....this is supernatural event going on....i can see it with my eyes and hear it with my ears every single day, and it gets worse, every single day....my heart breaks for the 11 year old that is being whored out to homosexual pedos by his own damn parents...this is sick and not something that can be logically explained, except for an overshadowing of evil.....these are reprobates and they have been turned over to a reprobate mind....romans 1.....this is also something that the watchers and their children did,also

Michael......Great to hear you are posting once again. I get bored talking to myself in the thread. It appears several people read the thread but very,very few take time to post. 


It blows my mind to think how bad it was in The Days of Noah. Just hard to fathom that it's going to be even worse before The Return of The Lord Jesus Christ.

We now live in a world of cell phone zombies. People had rather be banging on a cell phone than look someone in the eyes and communicate with them. For some people a cell phone is so addicting it's become their crack cocaine. I can already see a not to distant future of cell phone addiction rehab centers charging tens of thousands of dollars to help release fingers from cell phones.

You are appreciated Scars. I read all of your posts and all of the other fine members too- I am in agreement much of the time. I 'm pretty much  a new, eyes opened person though and just don't comment much of the time on anyones posts because I'm still learning and don't want to make a fool of myself.  
 With all of the things like Mike mentioned coming on so fast , I just don't see how it will be long before He  puts an end to it. People are changing our food genes and now tampering with "genes in humans and animals .. Soon... or no flesh will be saved.

scarz, the first thing that i do when i sit down with coffee in the mornings is to check this thread to see if you wrote anything, and if not, at lunch....your posts were getting read.....i don't always agree with everything that you write, but you can ask bordercollie about that not being unusual....there is only ONE person that (as far as i know) i agree 100% with and he is dead....that is/was arnold murray and 30 years ago i thought he was a damn heretic, yet even he was a preacher/teacher that kept things simple.....only until i cleaned the slate and started over with my own research, completely void of the "Christology" and religiousity taught by modern men, did i find out just how error filled modern "churchology" had become....you understand what passes as modern "Chrisianity" is full of paganistic practices,misrepresentations of scripture, conflictions and just a whole bunch of made up shit to try to explain what is not understood, and a more common situation, scripture that they just don't like....so, keep writing while this old man rests up a couple of days after pulling onions in the morning.....i'm going to challenge you on some doctrinal issues that i glean from your writings.....in the meantime, i would like for you to watch this video from the man that i consider to be the greatest living preacher in the world, john macathur....the only thing that i really have contention with him is the timing of the rapture...he is, of course, a pre-tribber....i am a last trumpet pre-wrath guy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tutZptMHx8c

oh man, you brought out something  about a dumbed down populace,scarz....its a form of mind control with the phone thing....tried having a conversation with a teenager,lately?...they can barely speak the english language....i have a 1st cousin who works at a high school, doing clerical work and she said that there are kids in jr high that cannot look at a clock and tell you what time it is and they are not special ed kids,either.....this is supernatural.....my wife and i have had to go to the doctor a bunch over the last few years,and we watch people after we get seated....we watch to see how many conversations are started and how many pop out a phone.....one time, there was a waiting room full of people at a pain management clinic, and every one in there had a phone out except one old, fat black woman....i told my wife that we were not the only ones that didn't use a smart phone,ipad or whatever they all are, and there was no way that old black gal was going to pop one out...long story short, her husband came out of the bathroom,sat down by her, and pulled out a damn phone and gave it to her for her to play with....it is a means to control, monitor and influence people, and also a way to make stupid people stupider so they create a class of, well, pacified zombies....this is just another element of the anti-christ antithesis of the Holy Spirit.....the evil "omiprescence" version of the 3rd part of the unholy trinity

Ha!! I just told Mike last week how I was celebrating the selling of my Kubota and so we all went to the pizza place. The people next to us has a squalling baby so they give it a cell phone to watch a movie on. It quiets down but the movie is  very hearable.. and their conversations were not pleasant neither.. moral decline  is rampant .poor baby..

Michael and Bordercollie.......I just enjoy taking time to lay out many ideas and things that interest me. I don't want anyone to think I claim to have most things figured out within The Bible. I don't see myself ever saying this is it and it can't be anything else. Like I tell my Dad all the time......."When all is said and done and the final curtain is drawn I believe things are going to be much different than "Anyone" has ever dreamed." 

I've listened to Arnold Murray for many years and I agree in areas but some I don't. I really like the chapter by chapter and verse by verse of study that he as well as his son do. You just don't find that from preachers. Most take a verse and build a sermon around. Most of the time it turns out being more story telling than anything.

Your opinions are good to hear Scars and  we understand that it's not written in stone.   
 I liked listening to the elder Murray because he was very much politically incorrect.  He was my favorite and gave me  what I needed to hear after having 2 deaths in the family in 2 years. He was not a money grabber  and he preached against them. I loved it when he got all fired up  against them.
  I also didn't agree on all points but he was good at his sermons  and helped me to understand things I hadn't in the past.  I often put a cd I made in the player at night on go to sleep with it on repeat.

I just read this on Michael Heiser's Naked Bible Blog and was written by Dr. Ronn Johnson. This is what it's all about in his own words......."What follows are the one hundred bricks which make up, in my opinion, the big story wall of the Bible."


Here also is something he wrote within his layout that spoke volumes to me.


"We never believe everything someone says (or at least we shouldn’t), and in the end this means that we are forming our own theology as we go through life. Right now the theologian with whom you are most content is yourself, and this is fine. I know of no better alternative. It just means that your work is never done."


http://drmsh.com/big-story-bible-part-10/



God creates the universe
God creates elohim above humans
God creates humans below elohim
Humans fail a loyalty test
Humanity dies and awakens
Creation is sentenced to frustration
Adam’s family shows divided loyalties
Elohim interfere in human affairs
God destroys the earth
Elohim receive territorial rule
 

Elohim abuse their authority
God judges ruling elohim
Abraham switches spiritual loyalties
Abraham is promised blessing
Elohim come to earth as messengers
God designates loyalty as right
God designates disloyalty as wrong
Abraham’s family shows divided loyalties
God’s family is named Israel
Jacob bears twelve tribes
 

Joseph saves the family in Egypt
Pharaoh enslaves the family
God reveals his name
Passover redeems Israel
Israel accepts Torah
Israel worships Baal
God clarifies his jealousy
Loyalty is demanded
Disloyalty is predicted
Sacred space is institutionalized
 

Ritual is explained
Moral behavior is clarified
Rebellion is disallowed
Israel wanders for forty years
Israel reaffirms its loyalty
Joshua defeats Canaan
Tribal hostilities intensify
A Moabitess enters the family
David is chosen as king
David models loyalty
 

David is promised a king
David publicly sins
David is forgiven
Solomon welcomes idolatry
Idolatry divides the kingdom
A Gentile nation repents
Assyria conquers Israel
Babylon conquers Judah
Sacred space is destroyed
Jews are taken into exile
 

A new covenant is promised
A human is appointed to rule with God
A remnant remains loyal
Torah is reexamined
Judea is recolonized
Gentile destruction is assumed
God goes silent
Israel fights for independence
Jewish purity is recognized
Herod paganizes the temple
 

Righteous people await the messiah
John announces the messiah
A unique theos is born
God declares his love for Jesus
Jesus models loyalty
Satan cedes his authority to Jesus
Elohim recognize Jesus
Jesus exorcizes elohim
Jesus fulfills Torah
Jesus clarifies ritual
 

Jesus welcomes the impure
Jesus teaches in parables
Jesus confers authority to disciples
Jesus suffers
Jesus dies
Temple veil is torn
Jesus resurrects
Jesus ascends
Disciples preach Jesus’ lordship
Jerusalem believers scatter
 

Paul meets Jesus
Peter refuses Cornelius
God declares Gentiles pure
Holy Spirit confirms Gentile favor
Paul explains the shape of Abraham’s family
Jesus’ death is interpreted as spiritual victory
Jesus’ death is interpreted as new Passover
Jesus’ death is interpreted as ritual cleansing
Torah becomes redundant
Paul clarifies Jewish ethics

a must listen:

I  was surprised by the number of thumbs down on this video that Mike posted about. I guess I shouldn't be though considering the shape of this world.

judy, we are in the days of Lot, who was evidently a "politician"( authoritative figure) who "sat in the gate" or in other words a big shot who loved his position in sodom....there was not a single righteous man in either city, but abraham was a compassionate dude who tried to bargain with God to not destroy both of the cities until he found out that there was not a single person who was not a believer....they were all sexual deviates,degenerates and freaks....america is in the process of becoming just like that....people that accept and defend the wretched behavior are just as guilty as the ones that actually engage in such activity......sexual attraction between a man and a woman is natural behavior, and has to be dealt with in a way of self denial, but what was going on in lots days were absolute extreme situations, that included bestiality,pedophilia, orgies,and of course homosexuality.....all of this was glorified by the inhabitants ....the details are in some of the extra-biblical books that i've read and it is consistent with the story in genesis....this is what america is going to turn into in some parts of the country....so, you should not be surprised at anything....cheer up saints, its going to get worse!!!!!!!

Michael371 wrote:

we are in the days of Lot
 
....they were all sexual deviates, degenerates and freaks....america is in the process of becoming just like that....

 
Then there’s that little tid-bit about all the people showing up at Lot’s door demanding those two angels to do the nasty with. Much of my research on nephilim and where they came from after the flood revolves around this. There was an awful lot of slaughtering going on after the Hebrews 40 years were over and they entered the promised land. Men, women, children, even the animals were killed. There was another gene problem happening back then. There’s another one happening world-wide today too. Alien abductions ending in pregnancies with fetus’ removed at about 3 months – transhumanism – gene splicing unlike kinds together. Think Monstersanto type stuff going on. How about that kid born to three parents (genetic splicing) in England a few years ago. People walking around today that ARE NOT FULLY HUMAN! Yes, I do thoroughly believe that. I wonder just how close to the end we really are.

researcher, to anyone that takes the time to look into this, and then just sits down and THINKS, its right there.....Christ spoke of two different "times/days" lot and noah that would occurring in the future....we are in the middle of them....genetic alterations and sexual depravity....."eating,drinking, marrying and giving in marriage"....daniel 2:43-"and they will mingle their seed with mens"....i do suspect the racheting up of CERN did something....maybe/maybe not, but i am sure of the mind that it did

Thanks for the video michael. John McArthur is one of my old-time favorites and he didn't disappoint. The man has logic, reason, and common sense. It's like a breath of fresh air.

Esaias ( Isaiah) Chapter 13 in the Septuagint Bible.  I choose to use the Septuagint in my lay out of Chapter 13. 

The "Day's of Noah" will certainly make a return in the days of the Son of Man.


1] THE VISION WHICH ESAIAS SON OF AMOS SAW AGAINST BABYLON.


2] Lift up a standard on the mountain of the plain, exalt the voice to them, beckon with the hand, open the gates, ye rulers.


3] I give command, and I bring them: giants (Nephilim) are coming to fulfil my wrath, rejoicing at the same time and insulting. 


4] A voice of many nations on the mountains, even like to that of many nations; a voice of kings and nations gathered together: the Lord of hosts has given command to a war-like nation,


5] to come from a land afar off, from the utmost foundation of heaven; the Lord and his warriors are coming to destroy all the world.


6] Howl ye, for the day of the Lord is near, and destruction from God shall arrive.


As we can see from the above verses that Nephilim (giants) are going to come to fulfill Gods wrath. What I find very telling is that the Lord of host (God) is going to give command to a [war-like nation] that will come from a land [afar off] from the [utmost foundation of heaven]. The definition for the word utmost is...."Being or situated at the most distant limit or point; farthest." 

This certainly appears to imply that these Nephilim will come from a land far out to the farthest point or distant limit of heaven. To me the utmost foundation of heaven doesn't sound like they will come from some place here on earth. These Nephilim as it says "Are coming" to destroy the world and destruction from God "Shall Arrive."

It makes no difference if this afar off land is somewhere out in the heavens or to the farthest point of earth. We only need to know that the Nephilim (Giants,Mighty Men,Warriors) will be on earth once again as they were in the past.

Book of Enoch.....“Enoch, Thou scribe of righteousness, go and deliver to the Watchers of Heaven who have left the high heavens, the holy eternal place, and have defiled themselves with earthly women. They have wrought great destruction on earth and [they shall have neither peace nor forgiveness of sin].”


The Watchers (Sons of God) who chose to fall,gave up the heavens for the earth.They had [it],they were a spiritual eternal creation but they chose to give [it] up for the [world] and the [things of the world]. 

After their great sins they were in hope of being forgiven and making a return to heaven. They even ask Enoch to carry their petition to God,but it did no good. Enoch then saw a vision while he was sleeping in reference to the petition.


Book of Enoch......."the Watchers, the children of heaven. I wrote out your petition, and in my vision it appeared thus, that [your petition will not be granted] unto you [throughout all the days of eternity], and that judgement.... has been finally passed upon you: yea (your petition) will not be granted unto you. And from henceforth you [shall not ascend into heaven unto all eternity],"

Enoch in his vision heard God speak these words......."'Fear not, Enoch, thou righteous man and scribe of righteousness: approach hither and hear my voice. And go, say to the Watchers of heaven, who have sent thee to intercede for them: "You should intercede" for men, and not men for you:"

God takes it further speaking to Enoch......"And now as to the Watchers who have sent thee to intercede for them, who had been aforetime in heaven, (say to them): "You have been in heaven, but all the mysteries had not yet been revealed to you, and you knew worthless ones, and these in the hardness of your hearts you have made known to the women, and through these mysteries women and men work much evil on earth." 


Say to them therefore: "You have no peace."' 



The above says a whole lot about the mysteries. As it reads the Watchers may have thought all the mysteries had been revealed to them,but that wasn't the case.

The Adversary and those Messengers he drew away from God the Father also had [it] but chose to fall and gave [it] up. I've never read anywhere in scripture that The Adversary or the Fallen Messengers will receive forgiveness as was the case of the Watchers.

God the Father could have placed the same judgment on Adam and Eve but he chose a different road to take involving them. They to had [it] but fell also.

Adam as well as Eve had a curse placed upon them and once they fell they were no longer the same created beings. 

We the descendent's of Adam never had [it] as they did. They all had [it] and fell from [it]. We were all born in sin and only through Christ can we obtain [it]. Man has a way to God the Father through Christ, where the Watchers,The Adversary and the Fallen Messengers can never return.

dear peeps, this post does not belong in this thread, but i decided to put it here, so as to keep it bumped up to the top and not get lost in the clutter.....its my favorite read on the entire internet....i had intended to be here more after the garden was planted, but circumstances have prevented it....i need you guys to pray for us right now, and for my youngest grandson,hays....as we all have done, he has made some mistakes in the last few months and he is with us now for a while.....he is my favorite one (ya'll know you have a pick of the litter, don't try to deny that).....hays is a world class outdoorsman, owns his own boat,truck,etc, he builds duck calls,motorized bicycles and anything else he needs and is has an IQ off of the charts....he fished in the high school B.A.S.S world championship at age 14....in north mississippi, hays is famous, but he made a mistake and started messing with drugs....we got him very early on in the process, so i think he is going to be fine because there is no addiction....his dad sent him to me because i had a substance abuse problem early in my life and went through the 12 step program, and he throught i would be the best one to deal with it....dad was right....there are unlying issues,as there always are, so please pray for us...hays is a sweet guy and has the ability to make a difference in the lives of others...right now, things look very promising, but the rest of his family have to accept the reality of why he did what he did, and change themselves....his mom is our daughter, and lets just say that i think i know where the root of this bad plant was because i am married to  an exact copy and i'll just leave it that....can you say "muleheaded and opinionated?"....he idolizes his dad and resents his mom and that breach has to be fixed....anyway, keep us in your prayers and SCARZ, don't bail on me now..........mike

Awesome encouragement !  We are with you Mike !

here is a video for your entertainment....its one of many of hays doing the one thing that i was leery of doing....its called grabbling....you go under the water and catch catfish, BIG CATFISH! with your hands....my daddy did it, but i could never summon enough butt to do it myself because you can get hurt with a big fish....hays is 11 years old in this video and this was when he weighed maybe 60 lbs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llZDgHxuf-U

why would i mind the comment,dove?....hays read it, as well as scarz, and what you guys wrote was pinpoint perfect timing!....this is not about addiction, this is about a child saying "hey, what about me!"....hays daddy is a millionaire, holds a law degree from ole miss and works for the state of mississippi doing "i don't exactly know what"....and of all things, wanted to be an FIB AGENT(yeah i did that on purpose)....john is a straight-arrow and is not the problem here, but he is the one who is going to have direct the healing process, but he first has to understand....the fact that there are others on here that understand, kinda' surprises me, although i know that it shouldn't.....as far as hays goes, he is the best child that ,from a personality,good quality character standpoint, that they have....i think that if they will follow what i outline for them, there is about a 95% chance that hays comes out of this a-ok....

you guys just affirmed things that i had already talked to him about....oh, i forgot, hays is also a championship quality golfer....i won't go into all of the details, but romans 8:28 has been on display ever since hays got here.....things have fell into place in such a miraculous manner that i am a bit awed about all of this....

although we are not backed up against a wall, ya'll know that this has to be done right, with no shortcuts or bullshit, and that is the hard part, ain't it?

Yep.  That's the hard part.  ScaRZ and I both know the demon behind it all, I'd say.  And I'm sure both of us could relay some hair raising tales.  That demon whispers lies that we then believe.  One of the biggest lies is "I'm ok.  I can handle it."
Or, 'look at that person.  I'm nothing like THAT!"  

And it's often particularly hard for someone who is successful in most other aspects of life to admit that it's not truth, and that they really are no longer in control.  And there are no trumpets that announce that day that we are going to lose control to it.

We know that drugs and alcohol alter our perceptions, lower our inhibitions, stupefy the executive functions, etc.  And it never brings us to more satisfaction or more success.  We know it to be anti-God, anti-Christ in that it comes only to  steal from us; bringing destruction, conflict, loss to ourselves and those around us and eventual death to the soul and the body.
There was a time I thought death was my only escape.  I was very naive as to what had happened to me~what it was actually doing to me.

God said, there is no temptation that is not common to man (all men).  We, in our trials, are not unique.  Throughout history, mankind has either walked away from the temptation or suffered loss until we did walk away.

A smart young man like Hays might well resent that some such thing dare challenge him, think to rob him of his talents and success.  And be willing to put it away~as in KILL IT.
How do we do that?  Not by struggling or wrestling or arguing with it.  All we have to do is STARVE it. Do not feed it what it wants.  "Resist the devil and he will flee".

THIS moment is just as valid as the moment when one comes to the end of themselves, or hits rock bottom, or just plain can't stand it one more day.  
A smart man gets off the tracks, heeds the warnings when he hears the train coming, because that train is NOT going to move for us.  It just does what it does and has always done.

So, a little more.  God said that  we are always in submission to one spirit or the other.  When the demon flees,  it leaves a vacancy.  And if we don't clean the temple, as ScaRZ said, so the void may be filled with God's Spirit, the devil comes back with seven more.

And the last part is what caused the breach in the walls/hedges, and how do we repair it.  It's valid and deserves attention!  I might have an idea.  The situation sounds kind of familiar.  (after a rest) 

Dove wrote:

So, a little more.  God said that  we are always in submission to one spirit or the other.  When the demon flees,  it leaves a vacancy.  And if we don't clean the temple, as ScaRZ said, so the void may be filled with God's Spirit, the devil comes back with seven more.

Very true words you shared in your post Dove. 

I learned something the hard way and I always share it with others when my past life addiction is brought up in conversation......."Don't think you can ever win playing with The Dark Side." 

I got a kick out of thinking I could mix it up with The Dark Side. I loved playing with them and was dumb enough to think I could just back away slowly. There is no backing away slowly when you enter "Their Arena". 

They always win!!! They may let you think you've won a battle......"But that's just a way to suck you in deeper." 

The deeper you fall the walls close in around you more and more until you become an inmate of their world. It's a long hard struggle ever climbing out of the inmate pit.

I could write for weeks and weeks about this.  And I gladly would if it was guaranteed to spare someone else from learning the hard way.  Knowledge and awareness are critical to avoid the traps in life.
That, and knowning 'who we really are', and  knowing our true value and purpose in life.  

Success in the world's terms is no indication of who we really are.  In fact, God said if the world despises you that's a very good indication that you have not compromised your morals and standards.
And Mike, you can sure point out to him just what we mean that this is a fallen world, ruled by satan, except for those who have 'come out of her' and yielded instead to the Will of God.

My experiences as a part 'flower child', part 'wild child' also extends back to my father, my brother, now my son, and a flow of young adults who sheltered in my house on and off for a few years.  One or two of them and alot of their friends are dead now.  Od'd.  It's very serious stuff, and it's a PROGRESSIVE DISEASE.

My alcoholic father was a minister's son and a corporate VP of an Int'l business we're familiar with.  Also a narcissist, a perfectionist; beloved at work, feared at home. His ongoing message was 'you're never good enough and you never will be."  In his mind, his success justified his many iniquities.

My brother is a retired metallurgist, a 'functional' alcoholic, (too old now for drugs), and "functional' as long as you ignore the auto crashes, the divorce, all the times he (and I) should have died, etc.
His history of rebellion and hell raising makes mine look like kindergarten.
And the devil was happy to provide the money, the trappings of success, boats,
expensive cars, fancy destinations, etc. 

My unofficial step son from my second marriage died 3 years ago from fentanyl laced heroin in his mid 30's.  He was self-medicating for back pain so he could do his job.
We can safely say that wasn't the right decision.

My son's experience is too painful to spell out publicly because I feel a huge amount of guilt and grief.  But I'd pm it because it's probably very relevant.
He's still alive, and still full of self-will, refusing to take the way out.

These things don't happen overnight.  And they happen regardless of 'status in life'.  I really want Hays to understand this.  We could make a long list of famous sports figures who 'unintentionally' got caught in the trap and what it did to their life and career.  I'm sure nobody ever set out to get stuck.  But NOBODY is immune.

Like ScaRZ said, you play on the devil's playground?  You WILL get burned. 
The trickster has many temptations up his sleeve but only one goal: "KILL, STEAL, DESTROY'.  

Ok.  Need to move to a new post to say what I believe is the way out, the way to freedom.  I just wanted to offer some 'credentials' here for my words; some of my 'qualifications' for weighing in.  

Thank you for posting Dove.  Your credentials  can be witnessed without adding proof. Again , I thank you.   I think we would all be scared, very scared if we knew how many  were in the evil one's grasp and how few  that see whats going on, are left.
  I myself, feel very weak at times but ask for help daily- that's all that keeps me from nothingless- because I believe in our Savior Jesus Christ.

Thank you, Judy.  I've been wanting to write more about your experiences, which are just a delight. 
Such a cool testimony.  But, I'll save it for the 'other' thread, which isn't finished yet. 

I'm having trouble here...we know 'The Answer' to all the Issues of Life.  Now, if we can circumvent someone else's pain and suffering...nip it in the bud, pull it up before it takes root.  Well, faith comes by hearing The Word.  And sometimes hearing and hearing and hearing....until the dawn breaks, the Morning Star rises within, with Healing in His Wings.
But in the meantime the enemy is working overtime too, and TIME can become our adversary.  

I just pulled up AA on bing.  Entry after entry is slamming against it, mocking it.  Shameful. God help us. I know the arguments against AA, but at the least it is a starting point and a direction, a proven path to healing.  It has saved countless souls.  

 Each and every day of our lives is a gift and an opportunity to be thankful and to do good.
And to REJOICE!  We probably need to work on that 'rejoicing' part.  To not have that is to suffer (at least in some degree) under the oppression of the devil=in this case, doubt,      Because Rejoicing is a natural response to Freedom. 


Back to the subject:
In it's simplest terms, if I have a drinking/drug problem, and I stop drinking/drugging, then I no longer have a drinking/drug problem.

Oh that it should be so simple.  But it's not that simple.  So we go to the next level in.
In some manner we were hurt, wronged, robbed, offended, treated unfairly, accused unjustly, wounded, abused, lied to-deceived, etc.
That wound is the chink in our armor, the breach in the wall, the devil's entrance.
A good first step is to talk about it...put some daylight on it...bring it out of the shadows where the devil uses it to accuse and taunt us.

I want to talk about Judging and Forgiveness. If I said to some of you that I do not condemn anyone to hell, and that I don't think we should, I expect I'm gonna hear it!
LOL.  But hold on a minute.  I believe there will be a "God Appointed Time" when we will judge angels. I do not recall the Word saying we will judge men.  And that time is not yet.  I believe 'Judge not lest ye be judged' is still the Will of God over today.  
So here's what I do.  I judge the action as good or bad-evil, right or wrong.  And I use that standard to examine my own behavior.  And if need be, I ask forgiveness and I repent (I don't do that any more).
I do NOT judge the other person BECAUSE:  Judgement is Mine, saith the Lord.
But I'll judge the actions all day long.  And point them out.

We probably have no idea about the true meaning of condemnation, as God means it.
I'll bet it's ferocious! 
God has alot to say about the words we use, and about forgiveness. We need to mind our place and acknowledge His, I think.

It isn't for me to know about everything that is of His Dominion.  It is sufficient that I know and do what He has told me to do in the Word.

I think that's as far as I can go today~I feel like I'm dancing around the problem.  But I'll instead call it "Laying the groundwork." 

Most people look in one direction but most never look the other direction.

It's always seemed to me that everyone must be born in the flesh and come to the point in their life to accept (Believe) or reject (Rebel) The Word (The True Light).

I'm going to bring up something that will never be easy to think about but I've thought about it for many years. 

I have never understood how God would let someone/anyone obtain eternal life if they died as a baby,insane,mentally without understanding,never had an opportunity,died before the age of accountability,and on and on........"I believe everyone understands all the other things that could fit here also."

Now I will explain why I feel this way. If the above lay out turns out to be true and I'm totally wrong,then everyone would have been, or is better off, if any of the above were or is them. All of us would have been better off dying or killed as a babe. You and I have no excuse because our opportunity is and has been in full bloom. We must either accept or reject.

I know this may sound strange but it's the truth. If a baby dies in the womb and who they are enters into heaven for eternity without having to live in this world, are they not better off? They never had to endure The Adversary and the dark forces. Where is free will in this picture?

Now we can take all the other scenarios and fit them also into a picture much the same. How is it that someone/anyone that fits any of the scenarios be of favor over all that must accept or reject?

We always hear the story from the other side,but never hear it from this side.

Will there come a time when truly "Everyone" will be given the opportunity to accept or reject The True Light?

That's  deep  Scars. I had wondered the same why at times . But , then, I thought maybe the NATURALLY  taken early ones were already perfect and without "anything to prove ". As we know  He said He knew them before the womb. Perhaps we  living here now are fulfilling a job  dictating the manner in which we were already known to Him (not perfect), in ministering to others and maybe bringing them to Him.  The truly evil ones here among us now have a chance now to reject or accept as do the blind ones. In the end I know that murder is murder.. etc , what the Bible says about it and how we will all be accountable for what we do.  There are no coincidences and so I believe all things are for a reason- we just need to see them and stay forever alert as not to be deceived.  These are just  thoughts I have and not  glued to it.

in my opinion, based on very little scripture available concerning this subject, all babies go to heaven....that is based on the only verse that i have ever seen concerning that situation....it was the death of king davids/bathshebas baby where david repented and cried out to God....i'll have to paraphrase because i cannot remember the exact quote, but off the top of my head david said, " he can't come to me but i can go to him" after he was told the baby had died....babies are in a state of innocence, whether in or outside the womb....when a baby dies, its for a reason that quite frankly, is above my level of understanding.....i had a child die in another life.....she lived a little over 24 hours and just stopped breathing.....i'm trying to do what i can to not let that happen to my grandson

dove, scarz, i want to thank you for opening up because hays read every word of it....we are different, from "normal" people but we are blessed in a way that they are not, its called UNDERSTANDING....we are a family here on this forum and have many similarities (more than i thought) in our views of the bible and all things connected, and some differences of course....the point is that we have each other to lean on....for the record, i am anti-freemasonary because of their gnostic approach and works philosophy,BUT the 12 step programs work and they are to be credited for developing them and i'll just leave it at that.....i appreciate what you guys did, and i suspect that ya'll got a lot of good out  of it also....sometimes it pays to look back and see how things were and how things are now,and to just think out loud and say , and i hate to use this quote but it fits, "free at last, free at last, thank God Almighty, i'm free at last"