Will we love the darkness more than the Light? ** Part 2

it is my theory that God used his DNA (for lack of a better term) to create mankind and the animals...factoring everything together quickly exceeds my intellectual paygrade and I have to speculate, and i hate to do that....theorizing on available evidence is one thing, but making guesses concerning scripture is unacceptable to me...one helluva' rabbithole

I don't mind laying out my thoughts on all different types of topics. If I have an interest in something I enjoy asking questions to see how others think. I don't believe for one second God would be against asking questions or trying to understand. One day the books will be opened and then and only then will we see all the pieces of the puzzle snapped together correctly.

Until that day I will continue to read,study,research and pray for a better understanding of the mystery as long as I can. I can't see a better place to be than having your brain in the scriptures. Too many don't care enough to ever advance beyond the starting grid of what should be a lifetime race.

Kinda' out of the flow of this thread but I got a ? for you,Scarz...One of the great discussion points in prophesy is exactly who is the mysterious "Gog" from the land of Magog. So many "experts" wrongly deduce that its Russia because somehow they equate Meshech and Tubul to two cities in Russia. While the odds of it being Russia are small, pegging down exactly where Magog is is also carrying low odds. Magog was the son of Japeth, grandson of Noah, who,as historians say, moved north and settled there. The book of Revelation says that Gog comes from the east...

I am more inclined to put Magog down as being Turkey, others think China or Persia(Iran/Iraq) and a few even look at the two Giants that guard over London,Gog and Magog. What is true is that nobody is absolutely sure, nor can prove exactly where Magog is

I hear you on this subject Michael. You can dig and dig on "Gog" and can appear to get close but then things don't fit.

At the very close of things as the nations surround the camp of the saints and the beloved city we see Gog and Magog mentioned again. Is this "The Battle" or is it just a dual prophecy of an earlier time in history?

Revelation 20:7-10


And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.     -- Genesis 10:2

Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.     -- 1 Chronicles 1:4

The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.    -- 1 Chronicles 1:5

And the sons of Gomer; Ashchenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.
-- 1 Chronicles 1:6

And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.
-- 1 Chronicles 1:7


Noah
  Japheth
     Gomer     Magog      Madai     Javan     Tubal     Meschech     Tiras
       |                                               |
       |                                               |-------Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, Dodanim
----------
Aschenaz
Riphath
Togarmah


(1) Magog, " tribe of the Caucasus"located between the Black Sea and Caspian,

What are the countries that are located here?

Karachai-Cherkessia.
Kabardino-Balkaria.
North-Ossetia.
Ingushetia
Chechnya.
Dagestan.
Abkhazia.
South Ossetia (Georgia)

Other countries in the area are: Armenia and Azerbaijan.
These countries border Turkey.

(2) Meshech, " tribe of S Asia Minor a/c Mushki"This is located in what is now Turkey.

(3) Tubal , " tribal region of SE Asia Minor" This is also located in what is now Turkey.

Some believe Gog is The Antichrist.

Ezekiel 39:4........"Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured."

Since Gog shall die on the mountains, how can he be cast alive into the lake of fire after Armageddon? 

Revelation 19:20........"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."





These verses below are the only two places in The Bible where "Chief Prince or Chief Princes" are mentioned. I believe this could be a huge clue as to whom Gog may very well be. Gog could be one of the Sons of God that took over rulership of The 70 Nations as they were divided at Babel. Gog would rule over Meshech and Tubal.

Of coarse the prince of Persia is not referred to as a chief prince but he is a prince. I believe he was/is the ruler over the nation of Persia and was one of The Sons of God given that nation at Babal also.

Ezekiel 39:1........"Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:


Daniel 10:13........"But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia."


I believe Michael is A Son of God and of coarse is one of the chief princes. Gog and Michael appear to be not only just a prince but a chief prince. Michael has never turned his back on God where the others have. Their rulership over the nations appears to have gone to thier heads.


In Psalm 82 we can see further how God let the Sons of God rule over the seventy nations of the world. This again refers to a Heavenly Divine Counsel as God is seen standing among the mighty congregation of Sons of God and judging among them. God gave them the authority to be rulers or princes over the nations and he will be the one to take the nations from the Sons of God. These seventy Sons of God as we read will also die as a man.

Psalm 82:1-8


God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.


How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.[Selah means we should pause and reflect on these words.]


Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.


Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.


They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.


I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.


But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.


Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

I want to share a comment by a person and I need to respond. He brings up some things I need to study up on before I respond. For sure he has some interesting comments on the work he is into.

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The Millennium Come. During this prophesied age, everyone will have a physical body. But no one will die.

Most Christians presume that only they will be in the Millennium and everyone else will be killed in the Tribulation. But that isn't prophetically accurate. There will be many people who survive into the Millennium. And they will be from every race and creed. They too will not die during this age.

And biological sciences are indeed on the verge of extensively extending the life expectancy of the human body. I am into this subject and I intend to play a part in its development. Now, I'm not talking about Nazi type irresponsible Genetic cloning - scary science fiction type of stuff. I'm talking about what God has created in our DNA. It contains the ability to permit a body to live a thousand years - without altering its appearance. No super human strength or anything like that. Simply living a thousand years. God put it there. And Jesus prophesied there would be such an age.

I am one who knows there is something special about our DNA, but not exactly understanding all that I know is my problem. I am convinced there is a difference in the DNA of those that hear the call of God and those that don't, and even the saved have a war going on their own life. Everything that is alive, or has ever lived has DNA and is the one significant aspect of living verses non-living objects. An elephant has DNA and so does an amoeba, as well as a rose bush and bermuda grass. God "breathed in the Breath of Life" into Adam and and I assume the animal life was created in much the same way( notice that I said "assume" and the first 3 letters are what?) just in a lower form. I would like to hear more, but I cannot accept anything that does not fall under the control or conditions set by Christ. To even consider anything like an expansion of a life span must be by revelation of a returned Jesus/Yeshua to man and not some scientific discovery or process without that Divine Revelation. Bring it on

The body is really designed to heal itself. Think about an earth that is without pollution......."Pure clean air to breath,as well as clear water for drinking as well as bathing and cooking with." Fruits and veggies that are not modified in any way. Every type of food pure and clean to consume. No medications to be manipulating the brain. These are only a few things not even touching on all the violence,hatred,stress,or worrying that cut short a life span. 

Man trying to play God is a whole different ballgame in my eyes. Just reading one verse of scripture in Revelation brings all kind of negative horrifying thoughts into my mind. Man can step too far and wish he hadn't taken that first step.

Revelation 9:6........"And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

Scripture also points to what I believe is the 1,000 year period of time that if one lives only to be one hundred years old that they will be as a child. The verse also reads that sin/rebellion will still be in the mix and people can and will still die. I don't believe everyone will live the full 1,000 years.


Isaiah 65:20........"There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."


English Translation of the Greek Septuagint Bible


Esaias (Isaiah) 65:20


 Neither shall there be there any more a child that dies untimely, or an old man who shall not complete his time: for the youth shall be a hundred years old, and the sinner who dies at a hundred years shall also be accursed:

Michael Heiser lays out a very good read on Romans 5:12. I'm going to post some of the lay out in the many sections to get to what I call the meat. I will post a link to all the topics so everyone with any interest can read the full amount.
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https://drmsh.com/romans-512/

Romans 5:12........"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"


Now for the abuse. Romans 5:12 is commonly used by strict creationists (24-hour day, six solar days for creation) to argue that there can be no fossils before the fall.

Here’s a representative quotation with my highlighting:

According to Genesis, God created a picture of perfection. Death didn’t come on the scene until man sinned. Genesis 3:15 and Romans 5:12 explain how death came after man sinned. I Corinthians 15 declares sin is rebellion against God and that it results in death. Physical death came as an effect of sin. Before sin, there was no death-not even in the animal world according to Genesis. Both man and animal were vegetarians. 



Anyone see a problem in the plain text of Romans 5:12? How about “through one MAN…” and “death spread to all MEN.” The text says absolutely nothing about animals – zero. Whatever happened at the Fall resulted in a transition from (apparent) immortality to mortality for humankind. Animal life has to be read into the text for the purpose of promoting a specific view of the fossil record. Nothing is said of any other life than humankind, so we should not infer anything about it. The verse cannot be used to justify the idea that animal life (and of course plant life) could not and did not die before the Fall. To argue anything in that regard from this verse is to insert it into the verse.

My question, to start the ball rolling, is simple: If ALL humans since Adam inherited Adam’s guilt (however that happens), then why does Jesus get off the hook? He is 100% human in biblical theology. His genealogy goes straight back to Adam (see Luke 3:23-38; esp. v. 38). Now, I know what the standard answers are. “Oh, Jesus was God, so he didn’t have original sin.” This avoids the question; it doesn’t answer it: he’s was also 100% human. To deny that is deny the incarnation It wouldn’t be a real or actual incarnation then). How about “He was virgin born, and we all know that sin is transmitted through the male-after all, Jesus is compared to Adam in Romans 5, not Eve.” Also evasive and poorly thought-through. I would hope it’s clear that all women are also sinners and have original sin. Mary was a woman, and she was the mother of Jesus. There is also no verse in the Bible that says sin is transmitted through only males. Another problem – so, if we cloned a woman and implanted that clone in another woman, would it be sinless since there was no male father? Of course not – to be human is to be under the curse of Adam. But this is a modern illustration of the same logic as theologians use to get Jesus off the hook (i.e., to stiff arm Romans 5:12 when it comes to Jesus). The problem is straightforward: we either assume the full humanity of Jesus or we don’t. The full humanity of Jesus–laid out so clearly and repeatedly in the New Testament–isn’t what’s causing the original sin problem with him; it’s the way we understand original sin and misuse Romans 5:12.


The traditional view of the sin nature goes hand-in-glove with the traditional view of Romans 5:12. “Sin nature” = “the Adamic guilt we are all born with, and so we are born in a guilty condition before God, without ever having sinned.” Let’s look at this.

If you’re following, you know my first response is, “That’s nice–did Jesus have a sin nature?” You can’t say “no” and retain the traditional view of Romans 5:12. Again, Jesus is 100% man, and he is explicitly called a son of Adam. Avoiding these facts isn’t a response.


Lastly, if the traditionalist on Romans 5:12 is likewise trapped to get Jesus off the hook of a sin nature in Ephesians 2:1-3, what about my view? I’ve explained in earlier posts how Jesus DOES inherit the affect of what Adam did, in terms of mortality. Jesus also inherited a human nature that, left to itself, would sin. But Jesus’ human nature wasn’t left to itself. Ours is, because that is all we are: humans. Jesus was also 100% God.


But cannot the traditionalist argue the same? Cannot the traditionalist argue that Jesus was exempt from Adam’s guilt just because he’s God? No, he or she cannot. Here’s why.

My view has the power of deity overcoming any impulse to sin that comes from our humanness (“all those who are human will sin, and when they do, they become guilty before God”). What needs to be defeated is the impulse of the flesh. That isn’t the problem with the traditional view. The traditional view transfers the guilt of Adam to every human, thereby placing them in a CATEGORY (“those guilty before God because they are human”). They do nothing to be put into that category except exist. Even if incarnated-deity-Jesus never sinned (and he didn’t), in the traditional view, he’d still be in that CATEGORY because he’s human. In my view, one’s own sins produce guilt before God. In the traditional view, existing as a human means you’re guilty before God. Jesus existed. He was human. He is therefore guilty (and cannot be anything but guilty) before God.

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Michael Heiser's take:

1. I believe Romans 5:12 teaches that Adam sinned, and HE became guilty before God. His guilt was his own, not ours. It wasn’t his guilt that was transferred to all humans. It was something else. I believe Scripture is clear that Adam sinned, and that something happened to the rest of humanity born from that point on, but that something is NOT the transmission of guilt before God.
If it was, then Jesus was guilty before God since he is fully human and in Adam’s line.


2. That something *produced* the conditions by which all humans will become guilty before God *on their own* and in need of Savior.


3. What passed to all of humanity as a result of Adam’s sin was mortality / death. That is what the text says. This means that humanity lost immortality. It also means, going back to the Genesis story, that humans were driven from the presence of God in an ideal “heaven meets earth” environment. They were on their own. Left to their own, as non-divine mortals, the result is that all humans, born from that point on, were born into those conditions. If they are allowed to live a normal life span, this means that all humans will sin and incur guilt before God. No human “cannot not sin.” Sin would be universal and inevitable for all humans who get to live some measure of a lifespan where they can choose to rebel against God (i.e., sin).


4. In other words, mortality = the universal propensity and inevitability of sin. All humans need Christ and his work for salvation.


5. This in turn is the answer to the Jesus dilemma. YES, Jesus inherited Adam’s fall – because all that means is that he inherited MORTALITY. And of course Jesus was mortal in the incarnation. He COULD and obviously DID die – like any other human, barring divine intervention (like Elijah and Enoch). Jesus didn’t inherit guilt from Adam because that isn’t the point of Romans 5:12. There is no dilemma.

The man, Adam, sinned WILLINGLY, the woman, Eve, was deceived. The first death was the animal that God killed. That animal represented Christ, "who was slain from the foundation of the world" and was used to cover the "nakedness" of fallen man. The entire gospel in a nutshell

My questions would be........"If there was a human Genesis 1 (Male,Female) creation as well as another human creation in Genesis 2 (The Man Adam), were the Genesis 1 human creation already dying before The Man Adam came into the picture?" If death came first by the sin of Adam then why would they be dying if they were here before Adam?

If they were not dying then why? Did they live with no conditions to bring about death until their innocence fell from them as they now knew of sin. If they knew not what law was then there would be no sin. Once they knew of law then they knew of sin......."Death then spread to them." This could have occurred after the fall of Adam.

The Man Adam then could have been the first human to know of law and then know of sin as his innocence fell from him. Adam was now mortal and would die. As I've mentioned in an earlier post that there may be a big difference between being immortal and having eternal life. There would be a difference between eating from The Tree of Life and not eating. Eating from The Tree of Life allows for eternal life. Where certain conditions can still bring about death only being immortal.

bumping this up where we can find it,scarz.....a lady fell while I was waiting on my wife today at the doctors office. I was sitting in the car listening to rush limbaugh and I saw her when she fell and I ran across the parking lot(200 yards or so) and its obvious that I have no business trying to run, but I did because it was a nasty fall. Got them to call 911 because she was unable to stand the pain when we tried to get her up. The run and the long drive over there and back is just too much for me to try to write anything today, but I had rather read you content than try to write anyway. I was doing pretty well, but the pain is back after all of that and pretty sure it will be worse tomorrow. Old worn out bodies don't heal real fast. lol...It appeared that the lady had a broke arm and a probable concussion. The paramedics and fire department was there so they had plenty of big muscle,along with the office staff nurses. I left when my wife came out and it took a while to get to the car, and when we drove by, they still had not got her up. It was a nasty fall and she may have been hurt worse than we thought. I saw her fall and I still don't know what made her fall, it was level ground, actually a sidewalk. My sprinting days are over

My Dad fell at the Mall a few months ago and it scared the hell out of me. He and I were going up the escalator (We no longer ever ride the escalator) that we have been doing for many years and one foot sideways and down he went. Just thank goodness I had his arm and was able to keep it from being really bad. I was very close to falling down myself. We rode it up to the top with him lying on his back and I then picked him up. There is no need even attempting to pick someone up riding an escalator......"You can't get any footing and will make matters worse." To my amazement all he had was a sore foot and small bruise on his back.

I believe with scripture the words never fail. If scripture is quoted the truth is always there. What mankind does with scripture is another story. You ever notice that a bad fruit leads to a multiplying. As simple as one small lie can be,it will bear additional bad fruit very quickly. Not only just as lying to cover the lie,but it will branch out in many directions. The longer we allow the cancer of lies to consume us the dimmer the light gets and darkness gains more ground.

Here's something Michael Heiser wrote that I agree with. 

“It is clear that Satan is leader of at least some of the powers of darkness. As the original rebel, he likely ranked first (or worst) in terms of example in the minds of ancient readers. The fact that he is the one who confronted Jesus in the desert […] and offered Jesus the kingdoms of the world suggests as much. The lack of a clearly delineated hierarchy leaves the possibility that there are competing agendas in the unseen world, even where there exists the common goal of opposition to Yahweh and his people.”


This is what I lay out in a post on back in this thread.

I've thought about this for several years and could it be that those Messengers that fell with The Adversary aren't just at war with God and those of God,but also war among themselves? It would certainly appear to fit well that those that fell would desire power and control within their force. 


This also could be a fit for demons as well.

Its possible, but I can't remember any evidence, even the non-canonical books, that it would be the case. It would be possible because those were less than honorable entities and infighting among criminals is common place

I see Dr. Jack Van Impe died the 18th of January. I remember watching him many years ago. He was known as The Walking Bible because of his prodigious Scripture memorization. He memorized more than 22,000 verses.

I used to watch him,also. I stopped when he tried to make catholicism an acceptable "Christian" form of worship on one show. " Ahhh Roxella" he used to say. Roxella had so many facelifts that her earlobes were actually her boobs. Arnold Murray memorized the entire KJV,BTW. I hate to hear JVI died, he did seem like a good dude, especially to be on tv

I was sad also. I was sent a link of his this last week with probably a 30 yr old video of his and Rexalla's teaching - in it he was speaking of just what is happening now  but it was at least  30 or 40 years ago. It made my hair stand on end to listen to that one. Will see if I can find that and edit to include it here. OK here it is . . A lot to consider and think about. Will listen to this again as I was interrupted  during the first time listening.

Do demons have will?

In the verses of scripture below we can read that they have the will to make requests and they have the will to obey commands and orders.


Matthew 8:31......."So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine."


Luke 8:32......."And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them."


Mark 1:27......."And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him."


Luke 4:35-36


And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. And when the devil had thrown him in the midst, he came out of him, and hurt him not.


And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word is this! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out.





They also have the will to seek a new place to take up residence, or return to the place where they formerly resided.


Matthew 12:43-45


When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.


Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.


Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.




Do demons have emotions?

They have the emotion of fierceness, anger, and fear in the below verses.


Matthew 8:28-29


And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.


And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?


James 2:19......."Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."





Do demons have intellect?

All one needs to do is read Matthew 8 28-29 again and we can see they know their future doom. Demons know who Jesus Christ is in reading Mark 1:24. Demons know both Jesus and Paul in Acts 19:15. Demons know that there is one God by reading James 2:19 again above. Demons have a counterfeit system of doctrine or false doctrine in 1 Timothy 4:1-3. Demons also have the ability to communicate read about in Luke 4:34,35,41 and Luke 8:30-31.


Mark 1:24......."Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God."


Acts 19:15......."And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?"


1 Timothy:4:1-3


Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;


Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;


Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.


Luke 4:34-35


Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.


And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. And when the devil had thrown him in the midst, he came out of him, and hurt him not.


Luke 4:41......."And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ."


Luke 8:30-31


And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.


And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.

Many preach and teach that there are only three heavens. The Bible doesn't say how many there are,it only speaks of the third heaven through the writing of Paul. For the words to read third,then without a doubt we know there must be the first and the second. After that, there is silence in the Bible on the subject.


2 Corinthians 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.


Nowhere in Paul's account or anywhere else in The Bible have I found that The Throne of God is located in the third heaven or paradise. Many in their sermons and teachings imply that it is,and that's just not the case if we take what the Bible says on the subject.


In continuing with 2 Corinthians 12 Paul talking about the third heaven plainly tells us it's paradise.


2 Corinthians 12:4
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.


There is only one mention of a first heaven in the Bible and it's in Revelation 21:1. No other place in the Bible have I found the words second heaven,fourth heaven......ect.


Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


The word paradise is only found three times in the Bible.


2 Corinthians 12:4 (Paul's account)
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.


Luke 23:43 (Jesus while on the cross speaking to one of the malefactors.)
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


Revelation 2:7 (The Spirit speaking to the churches)
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Saint Victorinus wrote the very first line by line commentary on the book of Revelation. Here is what he wrote about Asshur. I have stated before that I believe Lucifer is not Satan but rather is (Asshur,The Antichrist,The King of Babylon,Nimrod),different names or titles for the same man.


"For we also read in the Gospel that the prayers of the Church are sent from heaven by an angel, and they are taken up by a holy angel against the outpouring of wrath and the darkness of the kingdom of Antichrist. For he says: Pray that you might not fall into temptation. For there will be great suffering, such as has not been from the beginning of the world; and except the Lord shortens those days, there would not be any flesh saved upon the earth.


Therefore, He will send these seven great Archangels for the piercing of the kingdom of Antichrist. For as He also says in the Gospel: Then the Son of Man will send His messengers, and they will gather His chosen ones from the four winds, from the end of heaven to its (other) end. And he says before: then there will be peace in the earth, when seven shepherds will arise in it, and eight attacks (lit. 'bites') of men, and they will encircle Assur, that is, Antichrist, in the ditch of Nebroth [Nimrod]: in the damnation of the devil."

I am on your side with Lucifer being the devil, but with him being nimrod....we've already went down that road, so we wait to see if its true. Scarz, I am watching this IS-RA-EL/ Palestinian thing really close and I intend to do a little thinking out loud today. I am not taking a position yea/nay but I am raising the radar power a notch

michael371 wrote:

Scarz, I am watching this IS-RA-EL/ Palestinian thing really close and I intend to do a little thinking out loud today. I am not taking a position yea/nay but I am raising the radar power a notch

 
What is it that has your radar tracking? Please lay out what you are thinking......"It might give us something to talk about." 

I've just about covered everything and now I'm beginning to not have much to add. Maybe I just need to recharge myself once again.

Keep on Scars, I enjoy reading your posts.

Here are just a few of my thoughts on eschatology.

I in no way believe it is a waste of time to read and study prophecy as some do. Blessings don't always come in an instant. Our will is not God's will......."We must wait for God's time not our time." 

We have been living in tribulations all our lives.

I do believe we see the birth pangs but not yet the specifics of the full picture.

The birth pangs will continue to grow with more fierceness as The Lord's Day approaches.

I believe biblical eschatology is deliberately cryptic.

Close to the time it will come to pass is when I believe God will reveal it to those with open eyes and ears. In other words it will make sense to those who are chosen for understanding......."Not those of The World." Those of The World will be asleep in their minds.

Isaiah 42:9........"Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them."

Before they spring forth he will proclaim (tell them) to us. This pretty much sums it up doesn't it?

I know all the negatives of Enoch 2 but have read it and some of it I find  parts within a very interesting tale. I'm not saying I believe it as fact......."Just it got my attention and has for several years." This below is the parts that I find of interest.


Watcher or Grigori means (Those who watch, Those who are awake, The ones who never sleep). 

The Grigori or Watchers are said to look like a man, but much taller, larger and silent.  

The Chief good Grigori (Watchers) are believed to be the Archangels....(Uriel,Rapheal,Michael,Zerachiel,Gabriel and Remiel).

The Watchers that are imprisoned on the second heaven I would say are the ones that came to earth, mixed with women and taught heavenly secrets.




2 Enoch Chapter 7


1And those men took me and led me up on to the second heaven, and showed me darkness, greater than earthly darkness, and there I saw prisoners hanging, watched, awaiting the great and boundless judgment, and these angels were dark-looking, more than earthly darkness, and incessantly making weeping through all hours.


2And I said to the men who were with me: Wherefore are these incessantly tortured? They answered me: These are God’s apostates, who obeyed not God’s commands, but took counsel with their own will, and turned away with their prince, who also is fastened on the fifth heaven.


3And I felt great pity for them, and they saluted me, and said to me: Man of God, pray for us to the Lord; and I answered to them: Who am I, a mortal man, that I should pray for angels? Who knows whither I go, or what will befall me? Or who will pray for me?




2 Enoch Chapter 18


1The men took me on to the fifth heaven and placed me, and there I saw many and countless soldiers, called Grigori (Watchers), of human appearance, and their size was greater than that of great giants and their faces withered, and the silence of their mouths perpetual, and their was no service on the fifth heaven, and I said to the men who were with me:


2Wherefore are these very withered and their faces melancholy, and their mouths silent, and wherefore is there no service on this heaven?


3And they said to me: These are the Grigori (Watchers), who with their prince Satanail rejected the Lord of light, and after them are those who are held in great darkness on the second heaven, and three of them went down on to earth from the Lord’s throne, to the place Ermon, and broke through their vows on the shoulder of the hill Ermon and saw the daughters of men how good they are, and took to themselves wives, and befouled the earth with their deeds, who in all times of their age made lawlessness and mixing, and giants are born and marvellous big men and great enmity.


4And therefore God judged them with great judgment, and they weep for their brethren and they will be punished on the Lord’s great day.


5And I said to the Grigori (Watchers): I saw your brethren and their works, and their great torments, and I prayed for them, but the Lord has condemned them to be under earth till the existing heaven and earth shall end for ever.


6And I said: Wherefore do you wait, brethren, and do not serve before the Lord’s face, and have not put your services before the Lord’s face, lest you anger your Lord utterly?


7And they listened to my admonition, and spoke to the four ranks in heaven, and lo! As I stood with those two men four trumpets trumpeted together with great voice, and the Grigori (Watchers) broke into song with one voice, and their voice went up before the Lord pitifully and affectingly.



As you can see in my above post from 2 Enoch, Satanail (Is this Satan The Adversary or just another prince?) is the Watchers prince and they rejected the Lord of Light (God). I believe what Enoch is telling us in ( 2 Enoch Chapter 7 verse 2 )  that when Satanail was throw out of the upper heaven or heavens he fastened (To make fast or secure,To become attached, fixed, or joined) on the fifth heaven. 

This sounds to me like he was cast out of the upper heavens (ten,nine,eight,seven, and six). The tenth heaven is where Gods throne is located and I believe Satanail could go all the way to the tenth heaven before his fall. 

Once Enoch reached the seventh heaven he could see far off God sitting on his throne on the tenth heaven. Enoch was trembling with great terror and fear at what he was seeing. All the heavenly troops standing on the ten steps according to their rank that lead upward to the throne of God (Aravat,or Father of Creation).


2 Enoch Chapter 20


1And those two men lifted me up thence on to the seventh heaven, and I saw there a very great light, and fiery troops of great archangels, incorporeal forces, and dominions, orders and governments, cherubim and seraphim, thrones and many-eyed ones, nine regiments, the Ioanit stations of light, and I became afraid, and began to tremble with great terror, and those men took me, and led me after them, and said to me:


2Have courage, Enoch, do not fear, and showed me the Lord from afar, sitting on His very high throne. For what is there on the tenth heaven, since the Lord dwells there?


3On the tenth heaven is God, in the Hebrew tongue he is called Aravat.


4And all the heavenly troops would come and stand on the ten steps according to their rank, and would bow down to the Lord, and would again go to their places in joy and felicity, singing songs in the boundless light with small and tender voices, gloriously serving him.




Pauls third heaven  fits perfectly with what 2 Enoch says about the third heaven being Paradise. But in 2 Enoch on the Northern side of the third heaven is what he describes as a very terrible place with cruel darkness and unillumined gloom.

2 Enoch says that Paradise is between corruptibility and incorruptibility. Paradise on the third heaven is prepared for the righteous and for them it's a place for eternal inheritance. The Northern side is prepared for those who dishonor God and it's their eternal inheritance.


2 Enoch Chapter 8


1And those men took me thence, and led me up on to the THIRD HEAVEN, and placed me there; and I looked downwards, and saw the produce of these places, such as has never been known for goodness.


2And I saw all the sweet-flowering trees and beheld their fruits, which were sweet-smelling, and all the foods borne by them bubbling with fragrant exhalation.


3And in the midst of the TREES THAT OF LIFE, in that place whereon the Lord rests, when he goes up into PARADISE; and this tree is of ineffable goodness and fragrance, and adorned more than every existing thing; and on all sides it is in form gold-looking and vermilion and fire-like and covers all, and it has produce from all fruits.


4Its root is in the garden at the earth’s end.


5And PARADISE is between corruptibility and incorruptibility.


6And two springs come out which send forth honey and milk, and their springs send forth oil and wine, and they separate into four parts, and go round with quiet course, and go down into the PARADISE OF EDEN, between corruptibility and incorruptibility.

For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces. Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! The sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened. (Zechariah 11:16–17)


It makes sense that if Jesus is the Good Shepherd, that The Antichrist would be called a foolish or perverse shepherd. 

Jesus Christ bears some of the wounds of His death, which include the nail marks in His hands and feet, and the wound in his side. I have wondered for some time if this prophecy is talking about The Antichrist that he will bear some of the wounds of his death, which would include  a withered arm, and a blind right eye........"Or is it just more a symbolic prophecy over being a literal prophecy."

I've mentioned it several times in the past, that we tend to view end times prophecy being all fulfilled in our time frame of today. Just looking back we can see the generations of the past have thought the same thing. All will be fulfilled when the time comes and not until. 

I've been in discusions with people that believe we can somehow change and God will not fulfill the Wrath of God prophecies. As I told them, the prophecies are set in stone and will come to pass. These prophecies are not as some in the past where God would say......."If you do a certain thing then I will bless you but if you do not then comes the other side of the coin." 

Satan's Little Season comes to my mind once again........"And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season." (Revelation 20:3)

"Woe to the earth and the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, and he is furious knowing that he has but a short time" (Revelation 12:12).

Satan The Adversary was cast from eternity into time, and was entrapped by time as we are. It would not matter if the little season was thousands of years,Satan knows his time is ticking away. Although Satan has his moments, they do pass; he cannot maintain them. Satan has become as mortal as man.

James 4:14........"Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away."

A little time (A little season) is no different than our life as mortal beings. It would not matter if we lived for hundereds or many thousands of years, time one day is going to end. Time is running out for Satan as the years continue to pass. Our lives are that also,as all human lives are just a little season.

I think events can be delayed, but not changed...the reason that I say that is Revelation 10:6- And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven 6and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay, 7but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.

I do know that some proclamations and prophecies are conditional, and the above verse seems to insist that end time events can be put off temporarily, but not ultimately

Yes Michael, the mystery of God is hidden until God chooses the correct time and season. God then will reveal what was a mystery to whom he chooses. God is very patient and will let things play out in reaching the end result that is his will. One day there will be no more delay and fulfillment will come.

Scripture certainly does point to the fact that at one time it didn't rain. 

The first verse makes it very clear that no vegetation had yet sprung up because there was no rain,there was no mist at that point,and there was no man to till the ground. Then the next verse tells us what?........"A mist then (At this point in time) began to come up,rise,go up from the earth. It never said anything about rain falling on the earth from above. It came from the earth,not the clouds above the earth.

Genesis 2:5-6
And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.


But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.


In Genesis 3:23 we read that The LORD after the rebellion of Adam sends him forth from The Garden to then till the ground from where he came.


Genesis 3:23........"Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken."


If we go back to verse 5 of Genesis 2 there was no rain at that time and also there was no man to till the ground. Now going to Genesis 3:23 there is now Adam (The Man) to till the ground. Does this mean rain began at that point in time?....."Could have been the case,but we really don't know do we?"



"Using scripture (Only)." We never read in The Bible that before the rain that began to start the flood process there had been rain on the earth.

This is all I was laying out. I wasn't adding anything to scripture or taking anything away. I was only going by what is there.

I've always taken the view of the earth not having any rain before the flood but that is just my view. Some people do not see it that way because what scripture doesn't say. As anyone can read there is very little in The Bible written about before the flood. Very few details of anything. I guess that's the way The Father wanted it......"Wiped away by the flood."

Many think of it as a canopy of water or greenhouse that surrounded the earth. The moist atmosphere insulated the inhabitants of the earth from the sun and life spans were then much longer. After the flood we begin to see a drastic reduction in the years of the life of mankind.

Just think about it,the life span was so great before the flood that four men could have transmitted the entire story from Adam until Abraham. We are talking here of almost two thousand years. These four men were Adam, Lamech, Shem, and Abraham.



Here is a good article at Blue Letter Bible on this subject.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=738

Does the Bible teach that the earth did not receive rain until the Flood in Noah's day? Is it possible that the people had never seen it rain before the earth was destroyed in the Flood? Two passages seem to teach this.

Then God said, Let there be a expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. Thus God made the expanse, and divided the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so (Genesis 1:6,7)

For the Lord God had not caused it to rain, and there was no man to till the ground (Genesis 2:5).
Some say these verses teach that it did not rain until the time of the Flood. The earth was watered by a mist until the Flood waters came down. The water source for the Flood, it is argued, are the waters above spoken of in Genesis 1:6,7. They had been stored up since day two of creation. God did not open these floodgates until He destroyed the world in the days of Noah (Genesis 7:11). Until that time the people had never seen it rain.

Donald B. DeYoung presents the case of no rain before the Flood.

The rain falling on the roof of the ark may have been the very first rainstorm on earth. Several lines of biblical evidence of this exist:

1.No mention is made of rain on the earth until the Flood (Gen. 7:4,12). The original earth and the Garden of Eden were watered by streams, rivers, and mist instead of by rain (Genesis 2:5,6,10). These sources may have been replenished from groundwater. Humidity and mist are still effective today in watering plants. Part of Adam's responsibility in the garden may have been to provide irrigation for the vegetation (Gen. 2:15).

2.The vapor canopy that may have existed prior to the Flood would have greatly affected climate. It could have ruled out rain showers. With a uniform temperature over the entire earth, there would not have been significant high and low pressure regions that produce storms today. From the moment the canopy collapsed, rain would then become an everyday experience.

3.The rainbow represents a special covenant or promise of protection from another worldwide flood. The rainbow's appearance to Noah may have been its first occurrence in the sky (Gen. 9:8-17). Typical raindrops of sufficient size to cause a rainbow require atmosphere instability. Prior to the Flood, weather conditions were probably very stable.

If the earth did not experience rain before the Flood, then Noah's ark-building must have appeared especially foolish to his critics. Likewise, the faith of Noah described in Hebrews 11:7 was especially strong. Noah was warned about things not seen, which is perhaps a further indication that rain was not part of humanity's early experience. Even with this accumulated evidence, a final authoritative answer to this question of pre-Flood rain is not known (Donald B. DeYoung, Weather and The Bible, Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 1992, pp. 112,113).

There Was Rain

Others believe that it did rain before the Flood. The Hebrew word translated mist in the King James Version is better rendered as stream as in the NIV. The picture therefore is not so much of an earth shrouded in clouds, as it is of an earth that had plenty of water from rivers to water the vegetation.

Before Fall, Not Necessarily Before The Flood

Thus the text seems to teach that there was no rain before the Fall, because there was sufficient water from the streams to irrigate the land. However, this does not mean that there was no rain after the Fall. After sin entered the world things radically changed.

Summary

As we examine the evidence it seems that the Bible says that there was no rain in the Garden of Eden before the Fall. The text does not say what happened after the Fall. Although a case can be made for no rain until the time of the Flood, we should not necessarily assume this happened. The evidence does not allow us to make any definite conclusions.

From: The Inner Reaches of Outer Space:


Metaphor As Myth and As Religion

By Joseph Campbell


In 1,656 years, there are 86,400 weeks, and half that number is 43,200. There are myths about cycles in time, and out of time, so this doubling/halving is not uncommon. He believed that someone carefully gave the age of Noah to secretly hide the time cycle number.

He points out a number of other strange things about the numbers. Viking eddas were found in Iceland that told the story of the Day of Ragnorook, the Doomsday of the Gods. At that time, 800 Divine Warriors will come out of each of the 540 Doors of Valhalla (800 x 540 = 432,000).

The number can be found in an internal clock in the body, as well as in the Cosmos. A trained athlete's heart beats one time each second. In a 24 hour day, that is 86,400 beats.

The earth's axis wobble that causes the precession of the equinoxes is given as 25,920 years. Divided by the ancient number called "soss," 60, which was used in calculations, results in 432.

Some excerpts discussing numeric citations wrt the #432, pages 35-39:

"...Hindu sacred epics and puranas (popular tellings of ancient lore) the number of years reckoned to the present cycle of time, the so-called Kali Yuga, is 432,000; the number reckoned to the `great cycle' (mahayuga) within which this yuga falls being 4,320,000."

"...in the Icelandic Eddas, I discovered that in Othin's(Wotan's) warrior hall, Valhoell, there were 540 doors, through each of which, on the `Day of the Wolf' (that is to say, at the end of the present cycle of time), there would pass 800 divine warriors to engage the anti-gods in a battle of mutual annihilation. 800 x 540 = 432,000..."

"in Babylon, I then recalled, there had been a Chaldean priest, Berossos, who, c. 280 BC, had rendered in Greek and account of the history and mythology of Babylonia, wherein it was told that between the time of the rise of the first city, Kish, and the coming of the Babylonian mythological flood (from which that of the Bible is taken), there elapsed 432,000 years..."

"...the Old Testament (Genesis 5) and counting the number of antediluvian patriarchs, Adam to Noah, discovered, of course, that they were ten. How many years?

Adam was 130 years old when he begat Seth, who was 105 when he begat Enosh, and so on, to Noah, who was 600 years old when the flood came; to a grand total, from the first day of Adam's creation to the first drop of rain of Noah's flood, of 1656 years. Any relation to 432,000?

Julius Oppert, a distinguished Jewish Assyriologist of the last century, in 1877 presented before the Royal Society for Sciences in Gottingen a paper on `Dates in Genesis,' in which it was shown that in 1656 years there are 86,400 seven-day weeks. 86,400 divided by 2= 43,200."


Source: http://www.greatdreams.com/432.htm


A very interesting point that's brought out in the information above is that The first drop of rain of Noah's Flood, is connected to the mystery number 432.

Only way for the mist to come from the ground and water the earth is if there is a biosphere situation. What if the ozone layer were condensed so tight at that time that water could not penetrate it, but instead it collected on top of the compressed layer? What if enough collected, and remained in place due to the centrifugal force of a spinning earth, to have a helluva' rainstorm for say, 40 years?. Take a clear 2 liter coke bottle and cut into two pieces about 3 inches from the bottom, fill the bottom with potting soil,water and then plant a tomato seed. Next, fit the top of the coke bottle back onto the bottom with some clear tape and sit in a window sill. Never needs watering. Okay, we're on a roll so go outside, find a bucket with a stout handle and put in enough water to fill halfway. Take a deep breath and start swinging it around. Notice the water does not move until you slow down the rotation of you pull a muscle,whichever comes first. No rain+ centrifugal force....I rest my case

This is something a friend of mine wrote. Certainly sounds like The Beast System described in The Book of Revelation.

According to one who was born and raised in an Illuminati family, (who subsequently became a Christian and defected), the Illuminati goal was targeted to be achieved in 2050. This was the plan that their children were taught in the 1980's and through the 90's, while they worked to prepare governing systems and geopolitics toward this long term goal. However the advent of the internet changed everything and created "a window of opportunity" to advance the target from 2050, to ASAP.


Much of the major events we have seen occur in the world over the last decade, reflects a concerted effort toward this aim. I've learned their ultimate aim is a Global form of 'Continuity of Government' managed and ordered through the control of currency.

Yeah, Revelation 13:

11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Trying to fit everything together here will give you a brain ache. Right now, I have a problem nailing it down to something that I am completely comfortable with. The beast with two horns obviously represents some type of power of a state and a religious system, looks like "a lamb" ( like Christ?)but speaks like the devil. The lies of catholicism from the "vicar of Christ" are the first thing that comes to mind and would be the perfect recreation of Nimrods Babel. Genetic changes due to an agent that is supplied by an injected chip?. Genetic agent turns man into a nephilim trying to achieve immortality while chip contains all information about the subject and must be used to buy and sell? Who is the first beast?. Maybe the pre-flood "Golden Age of the gods" or maybe Nimrods Babel. It could also be a mooselim in the recreation of the Ottoman Empire with the Mahdi heading it. The way they are spreading around the world, this would not surprise me,either

I always wondered about this passage ..[ he had two horns like a lamb]... lambs don't have horns  so there is a meaning here for us. wonder about the original  text?

bordercollie wrote:

I always wondered about this passage ..[ he had two horns like a lamb]... lambs don't have horns  so there is a meaning here for us. wonder about the original  text?

I agree Bordercollie, The two horns like a lamb is very strange. I have for several years been stumped with these two horns. 

Horns are a symbol of powers or nations. The lamb is a symbol of Jesus Christ......"So what two powers would be a connection with Jesus Christ?"

This Beast coming up out of the earth would then be associated with also having these powers. Jesus Christ as we know has the power of King and High Priest. This second beast would have both priestly and kingly capacities.
 
Remember when God gave a promise to Abraham that one of Abraham's seed (or offspring) would bless all nations and be King of kings.

Of coarse we all understand this was Jesus Christ.

If we remember that this second beast has power which he was able to do in the sight of the beast........"The Beast is a connection to him." Does this point to the fact that the two horns are symbols of both False Prophet and The Antichrist?......"The Priest side (Religion).....The King side (State,Govenment,Political)"

A male lamb can have little 'nubbin' horns which will one day grow.

OK thanks, I didn't realize that about young lambs. .. So this "he" comes from under the earth (evilness in my mind) -  at first giving the appearance of one  sweet and innocent (like a young lamb)  but  then later speaks like a dragon."Spewing nails" as my Mama would have said...  Well, I know who this sounds like currently in today's world......  Much more for me to study because  I'm a novice and know it.I appreciate this thread because it's a great learning  tool.

James 3:14-15
But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.


This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
 
These two verses above from James bring much wisdom to the subject of The Second Beast coming up out of the earth. The Second Beast will appear as innocent as a lamb but only be a false christ like figure. The World will be deceived into believing his wisdom is from "Above",but it isn't a (Heavenly) wisdom at all, it is only from "Below" (Earthly). 

The Adversary (The Dragon) has always been a mixer......"Mixes lies with the truth." This is exactly how his ministers of so called light deceive. They are as their father the devil, adding sugar and spice and everything nice into a giant pot of mixed in lies. Most will never be able to taste the lies for the sweetness of the sugar and spice. 

“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:15-21)

What is the fruit of The Second Beast? ........."Just read Revelation 13 and his number one fruit is he causeth the earth and them who dwell in it to worship The First Beast."

Here below is some great verses from Jude.

“But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots” ( Jude 1:10-12)

bordercollie wrote:

I appreciate this thread because it's a great learning  tool.

I'm so glad we here have a place to come together and discuss many different topics. This is so important in the world in which we live. I come here to learn not just listen to myself talk.

Rick a friend of mine wrote this in an exchange of ideas and boy did he get my attention.


1,400 years after Moses, Jesus made another extremely odd and peculiar proclamation. The Highest Jewish religious authorities asked him when the Kingdom of God would come. These were men who knew all the scriptures and probably read the Torah everyday. 'Jesus' said, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you"


Yet even today 2000 years later, there are nearly a billion Christians praying to Mary, or Jesus, or their favorite Saint to help them. huh! And even some Protestants will clench their gold Cross pendant while they pray, in hopes that God will hear them better. huh!


Why don't they know that God is within them?............."Idolatry"

Answer: In Luke 17:20–21, Jesus says, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you” (NKJV). The context of Jesus’ statement is a question put to Him by His Pharisee detractors who had asked when the kingdom of God would come (verse 20).

Jesus’ answer was that the kingdom of God was not coming in the manner the Pharisees were expecting. The kingdom would not be inaugurated with spectacle or splendor; there would be no great and magnificent leader who staked out a geographical claim and routed the Romans; rather, the kingdom would come silently and unseen, much as leaven works in a batch of dough (see Matthew 13:33). In fact, Jesus says, the kingdom had already begun, right under the Pharisees’ noses. God was ruling in the hearts of some people, and the King Himself was standing among them, although the Pharisees were oblivious to that fact.

Various translations render the Greek of Luke 17:21 various ways. The phrase translated “within you” in the KJV and NKJV is translated as “in your midst” in the NIV, NASB, and NET; “among you” in the NLT and HCSB; and “in the midst of you” in the ESV. Earlier versions of the NIV had “within you” with a marginal note suggesting “among you.” There is obviously a difference between saying “the kingdom of God is within you” and “the kingdom of God is among you.”

“Within you” comes off as an unfavorable translation, seeing that Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees at the time. Jesus was surely not saying that the kingdom of God resided within the Pharisees’ hearts. The Pharisees opposed Jesus and had no relationship with God. Jesus in other places denounced them as “whitewashed tombs” and “hypocrites” (Matthew 23:27).

The better translation would be “in your midst” or “among you.” Jesus was telling the Pharisees that He brought the kingdom of God to earth. Jesus’ presence in their midst gave them a taste of the kingdom life, as attested by the miracles that Jesus performed. Elsewhere, Jesus mentions His miracles as definitive proof of the kingdom: “If I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you” (Luke 11:20).

There are three popular interpretations of Jesus’ words in Luke 17:21 that the kingdom of God is within you (or among you): 1) the kingdom of God is essentially inward, within man’s heart; 2) the kingdom is within your reach if you make the right choices; and 3) the kingdom of God is in your midst in the person and presence of Jesus. The best of these interpretations, it seems, is the third: Jesus was inaugurating the kingdom as He changed the hearts of men, one at a time.

...and this was in my email box this morning...  no coincidences ..   https://dailyverse.knowing-jesus.com/ephesians-3-17

I will let Rick speak in his on words where his lay out on Idolatry was going. I'm not going to try and talk for him,I might get many things wrong. Rick can be a very hard hitter with words. I respect him because he doesn't hold anything back. He and I  through the years have had some very good talks. He says what he wants and of coarse I do the same. Below is in all his on words...."None are mine."

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The Catholic Church is the most idolatrous religion on earth today. Idolatry is a required practice of Catholicism.

This is the prevalent reason why Jews and Muslims reject Christianity. As they vehemently reject the practice of idolatry, and the creation and honoring of idols. Just as 'Jesus' and the Apostles vehemently rejected idolatry as well.

The Jews and Muslims look at Catholicism and naturally presume that is what Christianity is. And they know their holy scriptures are very clear about idolatry. And so when they compare their scriptures to the practices of Catholicism, they naturally must conclude, that Catholicism can not be following in the way of the God who inspired their Torah/Hebrew Bible and the Qur'an. They have no choice but to reject Catholicism. And if Catholicism is Christianity, then they must reject Christianity.

Idolatry is a major contributor to the apostasy, and may arguably be the No.1 fundamental cause. It is subtle and seductive to honour and adore great people in place of G-d. And thus it has always been popular.

But 'Jesus' and his Disciples teach the opposite. Who is one to listen to? If one chooses the Priests and Bishops, they will fair better in their community. Put the Bible on the shelf. It's not needed. Tune into the Pope instead. Pray to Mary. She's the Mother of God. Or pray to your favorite Saint, they will speak to God on your behalf.

What should G-d think about all this?

The Bible is the most readily available book in the world. Anyone can read the teaching of 'Jesus'.

Martin Luther read it. And was shocked by what he found.

500 years later, the idolatry continues unabated.

Materialism is an extension, an evolution of the Golden Calf.

con't