From Beginning Until The End Of Days----->

Dove wrote:

4:03  Jesus is the descendant of Adam, the son of Adam

So he's human.  Where does he get off not inheriting Adam's sin

People's answer 'the virgin birth' well, where does she get off.
She was a descendant of Adam too.
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That was where I turned it off. I hear Jesus cut down every day.
I could not listen to another one. 

Again Dove you misunderstand what Heiser is saying. It's like you don't listen to the whole thing, or read the layout. If you would I don't see how you would continue to say things that are contrary to what Heiser is referring to. 

Heiser 100% believes in the virgin birth. He is talking about how the "Traditional View" of Romans 5:12 doesn't work "IF" Adam's guilt falls upon mankind and they inherit Adam's guilt. The guilt of Adam's sin would then be in every human born into this world from conception. They are all human.....Mary was human, she was conceived from human parents, so the sin guilt of Adam would be born in Mary the same as every other human. Mary was a virgin but that doesn't get her or Jesus (Who was 100% human as well as 100% God) off the hook, "IF" the traditional view is correct. To deny that Jesus was not 100% human, that is denying the incarnation, It wouldn’t be a real or actual incarnation then....."This is what Heiser is referring to.

These words I will post below are straight from his layout on Romans 5:12........"His words not mine." Heiser is not forcing his views on anyone. He is laying out his views, his take on the subject as he mentions many times within his material. He is not saying anyone is on a road to destruction if they don't view it his way.

Michael Heiser wrote:

This verse is on my short list of most abused and misunderstood texts in the Bible. 


I do not take the traditional view — that the verse is about the transmission of Adamic guilt. I think it is inserted into the text. However, all humans are sinners (presuming they are allowed to live) and in need of Christ for salvation (i.e., salvation is only through Christ and is not merited in any way).


I’m not anti-tradition. I’m indifferent to it. There’s a difference. Tradition should serve the text, not the other way around. My loyalties are to the text only, and to the Lord of the text, not to tradition.


 I believe Romans 5:12 teaches that Adam sinned, and HE became guilty before God. His guilt was his own, not ours. It wasn’t his guilt that was transferred to all humans. It was something else. That something *produced* the conditions by which all humans will become guilty before God *on their own* and in need of Savior.


What passed to all of humanity as a result of Adam’s sin was mortality / death. That is what the text says. If they are allowed to live a normal life span, this means that all humans will sin and incur guilt before God. No human “cannot not sin.” Sin would be universal and inevitable for all humans who get to live some measure of a lifespan where they can choose to rebel against God (i.e., sin).


In other words, mortality = the universal propensity and inevitability of sin. All humans need Christ and his work for salvation.


Jesus was completely mortal. 100 %. But that wasn’t all he was. He was also 100% God, and so he never sinned. The divine nature overruled the weakness of human mortality. His temptations were certainly real, though, and he felt them like we do. But he was God and never incurred moral guilt before the Father. He was sinless – but still a full son of Adam.


All this has some important ramifications. 


It means there are humans who never sin and who never become guilty before God, though mortal. Who am I talking about with the plural? Aborted babies, still born babies, spontaneously aborted humans after conception, the severely retarded, etc. They never incur guilt before God. 

I only wanted to make sure and post something that may explain things a little better than I have. The top paragraph I should have not copied and pasted it......."Thank you for pointing everything out to me." I had written it at an earlier time and just copied the whole thing from WordPad and pasted it. Not paying attention and reading it before I hit the send button is my stupidity.

Please except my apology.

I would remove that paragraph but then it would not be fair to your below post.

Dove.....Your post on the sins of the fathers.

The verse about the sins of the fathers:
Deut.5  Moses is relaying God's Words
9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
***********************

I did read some yesterday also on this but I never found much on it. What I read he only had a very small comment. There may be something else but I haven't found it.

I have never looked into this subject at all. Below I will post the small amount he brought up that may connect. I underlined corporate identity myself as well as the area that enters the subject. There may be something else but I haven't found it. Also ANE stands for Ancient Near East.

Michael Heiser wrote:

I came across an article last week about Paul’s view of Romans 5:12. I now have two of them that discuss his theology in light of earlier Judaism (not the OT per se, due to the above difficulty). Both of them spend a lot of time talking about the Jewish sense of corporate identity. The idea that when one person does X the extended family and even a tribe might be cursed for it (or blessed). For sure this idea is part of Israelite culture (and the wider ANE). But neither article asks the question that logically extends from this observation: In view of how corporate responsibility is ingrained in Israelite thinking, why is it that not a single verse in the Hebrew Bible makes this point about Adam? The silence there is telling. 

No problem!  
My first thought> does this mean we're even?            
Just kidding.  I know I often go too fast - afterwards! 
---------------
I'd be sad not to be able to participate here.  Sometimes we work it out.  Sometimes we don't.
SOMEDAY it will ALL be worked out and we will KNOW.   

I value the conversation and the exchange of ideas, and there's always more to learn,
to examine, to prayerfully consider.
    
----------------
Oh excellent. There's a new post!  
The only other verse that came to my mind when I remembered that one was when they asked Jesus whose sin was responsible for a sickness someone had. 
And Jesus said it was not anyone's sin. 
The context of that verse might shed light.

Good!  Something new to look at.  I'll be back, but carry on, of course, as you find things.

I love to discuss Dove, please don't leave this thread.

I found something from a podcast interview.....Naked Bible Podcast Transcript Episode 219 Q&A 29 June 9, 2018 Teacher: Dr. Michael S. Heiser (MH) Host: Trey Stricklin (TS).

I will post where the question was ask and Michael Heiser's response follows.


Stephanie, has a question regarding generational curses: 


In the book of Deuteronomy, it talks about the curse of the law and about blessings and curses. As Christians, are we still bound by those laws? Do we have to renounce what our parents did and our grandparents and so on? 

Michael Heiser's response:


Yeah, I'm not quite sure from this question exactly what curses Stephanie's talking about, because cursing shows up a number of times in Deuteronomy. If we're talking about curses tied to the land, I would say that's really not in view because the whole concept of the people of God isn't really tied specifically to the land, and/or Israel failed in those regards and they were cursed. I'm thinking of a passage outside Deuteronomy, like Leviticus 26. It was very clear: “If you do this  or that, I'm going to drive you from the land.” And that happened—that was the Exile, and so on and so forth. If she's talking about that kind of stuff in Deuteronomy and the Leviticus 26 kind of stuff, there's not really much of a connection. But I'm gonna assume she's talking about Deuteronomy 5. This is one of those generational curse passages that is not attached to the land. It's a bit broader, let's put it that way—or at least it’s not linked to that specific idea. On that assumption, just let me read Deuteronomy 5. I will start in verse 8 and go through verse 10. Again, I'm just guessing that this is probably what's behind the question. That passage says:


8 “‘You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.


Sidebar: there's your three-tiered cosmology again.


9 You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 10 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. 


So that's the end of the passage. And you get this “third and fourth generation” phrasing in this passage, so I'm guessing that's where this comes from. So it's the question, “Are we still bound by these laws?” In one sense sure, we're not supposed to worship other gods; we're not supposed to bow to other gods. The third and fourth generation thing, I think, though, is kind of really what's driving the bus here, and I would say that in in my understanding.... I'm not alone here. Just in the academic understanding, “third and fourth generation…” That language is there because that essentially amounts to the lifespan of the person who commits the crime, so to speak. So biblically speaking, “generation” is actually not a terribly consistent thing to nail down in the Old Testament because the term is used in different contexts with different time spans, the longest of which would be a hundred years for a generation. So if you have this family heritage, if you want to take the long number, it's probably not something that's in the picture anyway. But when it comes to human life spans—human lineages, that sort of thing—you're dealing with a generation being roughly 20 years. And that's defined in terms of just life experience, where biblically-speaking, people would get married when they're younger than 20 years. They would have children and those children would grow up. They get married in their teen years or 20’s and have babies, so on and so forth. So a generation, practically speaking, was roughly 20 years. If you have a third and the fourth generation, that's 60 to 80 years. Chances are the person who commits this offense is going to be dead by the end of the fourth generation. So this is another way of saying that there's  going to be an effect of this sin.


God is going to visit the sin of the father as long as he lives. The rest of his life, he and his children are going to be affected by it. So “third and fourth generation” is pointing to a finite amount of time, even if you take the one instance I can think of where the term “generation” is sort of attached to something that would be longer than 20 years. In case people who are listening are interested in what I'm thinking of there, it's the Genesis 15 passage where God is conversing with Abraham about what's going to happen to his descendants. They're going to go down into Egypt and be in bondage there for 400 years, and if you look at the passage, you have four generations mentioned there. So you do the math: 400 divided by 4 is 100 years. But that's probably a broad general statement, because if you actually even go look at the generations involved in national Israel from Abraham's time all the way up there, it's not a very precise number. So what the exact meaning of that is, again, is debated by scholars. But when it comes to actual physical genealogical generations, people typically in the biblical period got married before they were 20. So we use round numbers. So “third and fourth generation” is basically the natural lifespan of the person who commits the crime. In that sense we've got a situation where… Okay, let's just say that that's what's going on here. Is that fair? Why is God looking at it this way? Why does the passage say God's going to visit the iniquity of this person on the to the third and fourth generation—on the children? Part of this has to deal with the Middle Eastern/ancient Near-Eastern outlook that scholars would refer to as “corporate solidarity.” And the idea there is that the basic unit of society was not the individual, it was the family and the extended family. So you have instances, both positive and negative, in the Bible where a person will do something like a sin and their descendants will suffer because of that. And you have the opposite, as well, where if somebody does something good, then societally their descendants will reap the benefits of what their ancestor did. The positive example (one of the many) would be where David is basically trying to lobby Saul that, “I'm gonna go out there and kill Goliath.” He gets promised a bunch of things, and his descendants are included in the benefits that will accrue to David if he gets rid of Goliath. So you have this sort of social sense that (in David's case) if you do this, life is going to be better for your kids and their kids and so on and so forth. So there's this corporate idea going on in the ancient world, and that's very common. It's not just with Israel, but it's other civilizations, as well, at the time.


Now for this question, though, probably my favorite commentary on Deuteronomy is Tigay’s. I've quoted it before. And I'll just read what Tigay says about this idea because there are other places in the Torah—in Deuteronomy, in fact—that are clear that there's individual responsibility going on. It’s the idea that even though we have this sort of corporate mindset (basic unit of society and there's corporate solidarity and all that), it isn't necessarily the case that God is holding other people guilty for what somebody else does. There's a difference between suffering the effects of sin and being considered somehow a guilty party of something that happened before you were even born, so we have to balance out how we look at this language with other passages in the Torah and specifically in Deuteronomy. So Tigay has a nice summary of this. He says:


Effective as this approach may have been [again, this this corporate thing], Deuteronomy 24:16 forbids its application by judicial authorities…


And he quotes the verse: Parents shall not be put to death for children nor children be put to death for parents. A person shall be put to death only for his own crime. That's the end of the verse. It's a very clear statement of individual responsibility. 


Tigay continues. He says:


…but experience showed that people often do suffer or benefit because of the actions of their ancestors. Cross-generational punishment by God is partially mitigated in the Torah itself. In the Torah, only Exodus 34:7 and Numbers 14:18 state without qualification that God visits the sins of fathers upon children in both versions of the Decalogue [that means both versions of the of the Ten Commandments]. The list of generations to be punished and rewarded is qualified by the phrases “of those who hate me” and “of those who love me and keep my commandments.” And our passage (Deuteronomy 5:9-10) is one of those one of those qualifying passages. The phrase is most likely referring to descendants, meaning that crossgenerational retribution applies only to descendants who act as their ancestors did. In other words, God visits the guilt of the fathers on future generations that reject him and rewards the loyalty of ancestors to the thousandth generation of descendants who are also loyal to him. In other words, God punishes or rewards descendants for ancestral sins and virtues along with their own if they [the descendants] continue the deeds of their ancestors.


So that's the end of the Tigay quote. So in other words, we can't just sort of lift Deuteronomy 5:9-10 out and say, “Oh, one of your ancestors did something before you were even born and you're going to suffer for it. Now, you know God's going to remember that sin and he's going to hammer away at you.” Again, you have these other passages in the Torah that make it pretty clear that individual responsibility is important to God, and so you couple that with these qualifying ideas from other passages to say that essentially if you walk the same walk—if you walk in the steps of your ancestors who did this thing—you're going to pay for it. You're gonna suffer for it. So that's a little bit different than suffering the residual effects of a broken marriage or maybe alcoholism or something like  this—some sins that we're familiar with that have a long-lasting effect on people's lives or at least could. That's a little different than God holding you guilty for something that happened before you were ever born. What Tigay is suggesting here is that really isn't the case. There are these qualifying passages in the Torah that make following in their footsteps in a behavioral sort of way part of what's going on in these kind of statements in the Torah.

That was an all-inclusive look at Deut. and what was meant by those verses. Very complete.


And that teaching was still within the basis of understanding when Jesus walked.
We know by the Disciples own words when they asked Him, 

John 9 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
--------------------------
When Jesus said 'I have come to set the captives free' they did not yet understand.
But we do.  And what an 'almost too good to be true' Good News that is. It's everything.
That by fulfilling the Law perfectly in our stead, which man apart from God could never do, The Abrahamic Covenant was established and death defeated. 
SAVED! Not of my own, but by Him who walked in perfect Obedience.
Which is still how it is: Those 'conformed and transformed' by the Indwelling Spirt of God and Christ to His Image and Likeness, SO THAT, when God looks on our 'inner man', He sees His Son.
  
The flesh, as always, counts for nothing, as it is always subject
to sin AND also forgiveness.  Eternal Life is of, in, and with the Spirit, beginning when we are born again. 
Yet, where sin abounds, Grace much moreso abounds. As Paul said though, this is not a license to sin.


Whenever I read, it confirms my belief that there is nothing God asks of us that He will not do Himself FOR US, for those who Love Him and seek Him out. To GOD goes ALL the Glory.   
 
Woe to Is-ra-el indeed.  Their rulers, kings and priests. Blind guides!  Of their father, the devil. They are in it right now, wherever on the earth they are, including the USA. Their evil is exposed and they are being removed. 
----
Ok. Whew. Back to the discussion at hand. Where were we? 
I'd better go to a new page. 

I give up.  You pick the subject and direction.  
Even from a previous post that you would have liked some more 'eyes' on.

I did perk up on Heiser's use of the word 'traditions' regarding OT studies,
as I think that's unavoidable.

Oh..I also ran into another forum with a page discussing Romans 5:12.
We did MUCH better finding agreement.

Dove wrote:

I give up.  You pick the subject and direction.  
Even from a previous post that you would have liked some more 'eyes' on.

This could be an interesting discussion I've thought about over the years. Most of it would be what our opinions are. I would just like to get others thoughts on the subject.

We have no idea from The Bible how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden before they were removed. I think we understand that there is no time in eternity, so there was no aging process for either of them before sin entered the picture. There is no ticking clock for them until they are sent out into the earth......"This begins time for both of them." Adam lived to be 930 years old. Years only begin when there is time.

I've read material that say Adam and Eve were only in The Garden of Eden a very short time until they sinned. In our human timeframe how could we possible have any idea? There is no measure of time in eternity. It doesn't matter how short or long the layout in Genesis is, that makes no difference. 

As long as they consumed the fruit from the Tree of Life they were immortal. Once they were barred from consuming the fruit from the Tree of Life, mortality began, which brings about the process of time, aging and death. 

They never had children until removed from The Garden. 

Was there death for animals, birds, reptiles, sea life, insects....etc. Before the sin of Adam and Eve?......."Michael Heiser touched on this in his layout of Romans 5:12. I haven't found in The Bible where they did or didn't. My view after much study this morning is scripture is silent so we can only speculate and ponder on this issue.

I'm mulling over your post, ScaRZ.  You know 'Mulling" ?       

And whilst mulling, and other things, I found this.

A significance of 150 days in the Bible:  about a minute...

Elisha received the mantle of Elijah.  He was 'ordained' to accomplish a
certain number of miracles.  
That of itself is really interesting, but I don't remember WHAT they were.
-------------

While reading the other day I saw a search entry asking if the Bible talks about 
different levels of heaven.

The response was yes, but I was headed in a different direction and didn't read there.

What do you think?  Is it legitimate?  (it sounds to me like something Heiser
would have taken on).

Dove wrote:

While reading the other day I saw a search entry asking if the Bible talks about 
different levels of heaven.

The response was yes, but I was headed in a different direction and didn't read there.

What do you think?  Is it legitimate?  (it sounds to me like something Heiser
would have taken on).

Here are two videos with Michael Heiser on the subject.

Regarding the Temple, he said:
"The more Inward you went, the Greater the Sanctity"  YES ! and Amen!

Of course now we come to the Temple 'within', not made by (human) hands. 
But the pattern of the Tabernacle in the Wilderness is always valid.
---------------
In the second vid he's talking about where God is.  And the dilemmas man faces when
he tries to understand the realm of the Spirit through natural eyes, natural mind,
earthbound concepts and understanding.

In one way it's unavoidable or we'd have no language to speak of the Unseen Realm of Spirit at all.  So we speak in 'parables'.  

But I'll save it for the thread on 'dying' and hope to get back there and talk about it
in more detail. 

One revelation is that what is inside us, (our Being), whether it is the spirit of the world, or the Spirit of God-the Holy Spirit, that THIS is the determining factor of what we experience in this life and what the world itself experiences as reality as more and more are born again, and the Spirit of God lives the Kingdom THROUGH us. 
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Thank you for the videos.

Dove wrote:

Thank you for the videos.

You are very welcome.

Here is something Michael Heiser wrote that goes with what we recently discussed. To follow his material I will post his video on Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and Unforgivable Sin. Both fit because this subject will always lead to the other. 

***********************

Michael Heiser wrote:

One cannot commit a sin that results in the loss of salvation. Salvation is not about moral perfection, hence it cannot be lost by moral imperfection. That said, those who profess to believe can turn their backs on God and choose another god or no god at all. Election does not rectify this situation, as Israel was elect, but many (most?) of the Israelites fell into idolatry. The key here is to realize that election and salvation are not synonyms. 


Think of it this way. With respect to Israelites, there are no Israelites in heaven whose loyalty was thrown to another god. Their “profession” means nothing if they were disloyal to Yahweh and worshipped another god (or no god at all). One had to believe in the true God. That belief was shown by spiritual loyalty to him, manifest by refusing to worship any other. Salvation in the OT was about believing loyalty. Same for the NT, since Jesus is this same God incarnate. No one will be in heaven who didn’t believe or who chose another God/Savior/faith. Likewise, there are no believers in Jesus in hell. The issue is believing loyalty directed exclusively at Jesus. This doesn’t resolve the question of people who make professions and then do not believe – as to whether they lost salvation or were never saved in the first place. I consider the question irrelevant. The issue is whether someone believes exclusively in Jesus or doesn’t. I don’t really care about their history. Whether someone had a profession or not prior to that question being raised is irrelevant. The solution is the same: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, for there is salvation in no other name (Acts 4:12).

What is the Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and Unforgivable Sin by Michael Heiser

That was a good one.  Look at Saul-Paul.  Murdering Christians.  Trying to eliminate His 'False Teachings' from the face of the earth.
He certainly had a change of heart and came to champion the Holy Spirit along with
the Son of God.

I happen to think that Paul along with the other Disciples, John the Baptist, and many, many others were (and are now) predestined for their 'work' in the Kingdom. 
(Sent for a purpose. I believe there are many times the Bible speaks of this.)
-----

If for no other reason than the natural man has no idea and no reason for hope of what is to happen to him when he dies, and that there is no other religion or practice or philosophy that makes the offer God makes to man,  you'd think they'd be willing to take God up on His offer to "Try me, and see..."
I read that ''try Me' as akin to 'test Me' (put Me to the test) and see if I am not Faithful to Fulfill My Word'.

You've brought up several points I've been trying to articulate enough in my mind to post.  

LOVE is a biggie, and in the manner in which it's being touted these days, you'd think that's all it takes to walk with God. 

Mark 12:
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
------
1 Corinthians 13
[size=31]13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.[/size]
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
------------------------
The best definition of 'charity' I can find is AGAPE, which ministers call "The God kind of Love"

Selflessness: Agape love is willing to sacrifice one’s own interests and desires for the benefit of others (Philippians 2:4).

Unconditional: Agape love is not based on human merit or worthiness, but is freely given to all (Romans 5:.(five:eight..I can't post an 'eight')

Faithfulness: Agape love is a commitment to love and serve others, even in the face of adversity or difficulty (1 Corinthians 13:7).

Active: Agape love is demonstrated through actions, not just emotions (1 John 3:18).
-----
Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross (John 3:16, Romans 5:
God’s love for humanity (1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16)
The early Christian community’s love for one another (Acts 2:44-47, Acts 4:32-35)
The apostle Paul’s exhortation to love as God loves (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:13-14)


In Scripture, Agape is the highest and most profound form of love, exemplified in God’s love for humanity 
and demonstrated through Jesus’ sacrifice. 
It is a love that is selfless, unconditional, faithful, and active, and is the foundation of a life pleasing to God 
(1 Corinthians 13:1-3).

Those are the Fruit of the Spirit, not of man.
FIRST THINGS FIRST.
------------------------------------------------

It is the Creative aspect of being a child/son/daughter of God that I think God enjoys.
When our heart, mind, soul are brought into alignment with God's Nature, His Will, His Words, His Laws, we can have what we ask.
-------------------------

Verse of the day:
James 1:22 (King James Version)
 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

----
PS..if there's any undertone of 'cranky' here, it comes from trying to get the copied material to post cleanly..which it did not want to do!!!! 

Dove wrote:

(Romans 5:.(five:eight..I can't post an 'eight')

Yes, this happens when it ends with an eight) 

Just change the ) to a ] or } or delete it.

8] or 8}  if you use the eight with a ) you get a smiley face 

ScaRZ wrote:

To me the word love is the most misused word in the dictionary. 

That was so profound I forgot anything else.

One statement re loving another is 'he completes me', which turns my stomach.
Worldly love is a thousand different things, none of which should be the basis or
definition of love.

What if we lived in the 'Fullness of God' in as much as is available to us now.
Think of all the weight of getting our 'needs met', of 'presumed obligations', of emotional and physical security, of assignment of responsibility to another for our happiness and well being that just wouldn't exist if people first had Relationship with their True Provider.
FIRST God, THEN everything else. 
-------
Our many mistakes, hurts, struggles we count as Joy.
(Dove, you're talking nonsense.)   
Nooo, we wouldn't be 'here' today without them. 

I don't hate it, I don't hold a grudge, I don't ask 'why'.  I know 'why'.
I know I was blind.  But now that I see, there is no option but to
forgive others AND forgive myself!!!
God says I must if I want to be with Him!  So that settles it.

To have what God has for us, we must do what He says do.
And once we know what that is, WE have to make the first move
in that direction.
WE must 'step out in faith'. And that's the key that unlocks the Blessing.
People want to have the 'New', the freedom of it, without letting go of
the Old.  Yet the Word is clear.  That is God's Order of things.
It would be fun to bring those verses.  

The world and the Kingdom don't mix.  I have a picture in my head of
a person suspended in midair.  The left hand hanging on to the past,
the world, our old way of seeing, the matters of the flesh.

And Jesus reaching down, holding our right hand, saying Let Go!
I've got you.  Let go!
When we Let go, we are Raised Up, Restored, Healed, and see as He sees.
It was all a condition of the fallen world.  
NOW, we are born again (from above).  And He walks us in all Truth as we keep our
eyes on Him and Follow.  

A few posts ago you mentioned 'robot', with a fine response.
No matter what level of consciousness one might be at, which realm we function at, there are always consequences for the choices we make. 

The enemy has gone off the rails trying to conceal that fact, even removing the punishments for,
and even rewarding his dirty works whenever he can. But the world is waking up.
The tipping point is coming closer and closer. His kingdom is collapsing in the Light.
Many have lost their lives in this battle through the ages. Many this very day.

 I/we prefer to listen to the Voice that warns, and even steers me away from choices that would hurt me or others.
----
As the world descends into the darkness that many didn't even know was there, people cry out,
'God !  If You're real, there must be a Better Way.'
And God smiles.

Dove wrote:

Worldly love is a thousand different things, none of which should be the basis or
definition of love.

I agree to the max!

Some family members base what they refer to as love on giving them money and buying them everything they ask for. If you put a stop to it, they weigh it as you don't love them anymore. Also you will find out how little they really cared an ounce for you.

ScaRZ wrote:

I agree to the max!

Some family members base what they refer to as love on giving them money and buying them everything they ask for. If you put a stop to it, they weigh it as you don't love them anymore. Also you will find out how little they really cared an ounce for you.

I KNOW!!   Short of alleviating real suffering, or basic parental responsibility, they deserve the opportunity to work themselves, and buy what they feel they must have themselves, and then they can learn the lesson for themselves that money and possessions can't buy love or happiness.
Nor is it any indicator of a 'successful' life DESPITE what the fallen world indoctrinates them to believe.
(that's what I wish I had done.   )

I have an inlaw going through it now (since 2019).  His ex and their daughter are brutal in their tactics to always get more money from him.  Master manipulators.
He doesn't deserve it, but still can't let it go, looking for acknowledgement and recognition of the good he did,  and dreaming of reconciliation with his daughter and
grandchildren. 
Without a miracle change of heart, mind and soul of those women it's not going to
happen.  But because he won't give it over to God, he stays trapped in a circular game he cannot win.  
We've all told him the same thing repeatedly, but...not yet.
He'll let go if I can guarantee him that then he'll get what he wants.
But that's not what it means to 'let go'.   
He's got his heart,  his emotions and his ego, along with his wallet all tied up in this.  What it's doing to him is sad to watch.

Dove wrote:

But that's not what it means to 'let go'.   

We must trust God to guide us onto the right path and keep us on the right path no matter what it takes....."We place everything into his hands." We won't always understand the why's and why nots, but that's where faith comes into the picture.

Another post I ran into this morning:

"Yes none of this is to tie your thoughts up into Yet another version on why we should have God Our Creator in OurHearts .. we are all children of God born into this world with a divine soul .. God never leaves us .. and we dont carry a devil .. just because someone feels they have fallen .. doesn't mean their good God just disappears .. I AM who I say I AM .. < sound familiar .. no Religion needed"

------
Claim God and do as thou will.  Riight. 

They aren't 'bad' people.  Just clueless.  BUT!  I find them horribly tedious, boring, uneducated, UNCHANGED!  
And their words ARE dangerous.
Imagine how God sees them. 
Their aspirations take them no further than what we've lived in our whole lives,
seeking 'worldly pleasures'.
They stinketh and don't even know it.    
They aren't in my life except for the internet, but I just don't want to be around them.
I can't imagine anything more unfulfilling than living in their company, in their world.

They THINK they are inviting people in to participate in this 'freedom' they think they've found.
Wait till they figure out they've gone nowhere.
Take another lap in the Valley of the shadow of death, if you're lucky, dragging your medbeds behind you. 
Don't bother wishing for death. You're already there. There's no place left for you to go.

~Rant off~for a minute, anyway.

I should post something besides me letting off steam.   
I suppose God would like to gather them too. 
Lord, grant me Your patience, Your words.
---------------


Today's verse!
Psalm 119:130
 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.
-------------------------------------------------------

I'm still working on "Once saved, Always saved"
What do we think about these passages?

A great verse is: Jeremiah 1:
4 Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
---------
But that belongs to the prophet.  There are other verses echoing the same
words though.  I'll check them at the end. 
---------------
Then there is:  John 6:
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
-----------------
Then the Parable of the lost sheep:

1)  The religious beliefs of a population has always been the fundamentally greatest influence shaping the Governance of a society.  People can not be governed in opposition of their fundamental beliefs.

This we all know in retrospect, is why Stalin could never have created a Communist Empire (USSR) without first establishing scientific atheism.

And in comparison, Christianity's prevalence was the reason why Communism could never arise in Europe and the Americas.

And so if the Church experiences a "Great Falling away", the religious moral restrictions to totalitarianism are significantly reduced as an impediment.

2)  Not only is the impediment significantly reduced, leaving a lessor number of voices and minds contesting.  But being that 'Great Multitude that Falls Away' were once the impediment, their voices who now think they were wrong, become anti-christian themselves and thus become the most effective cheerleaders for a modern AC Emperor to arise.

Good points, all.  
I had just read a touch about Stalin in the past couple days. Your one sentence filled it out.
"The gates of hell shall not prevail..."  
The enemy has always been at work. And those words will be as true now through the endtimes deception as they have always been.  It's just hard to watch. Therefore, 'guard your heart'.


I believe there's something 'there' between 'predestined' as in born to a purpose, and the 'whomsoever will' people.  But it's not an essential point, as in the end
'every knee will bow'. (Philippians 2:9-11)


I'd say, having have lived the Prodigal life, lots of luck to those who think they're meant to (as I was raised) or determinately think to pursue their own path, having once encountered Jesus.     
Because even as nothing works, and we think He's let go of us, He hasn't.    

The LOVE of The Father.

We know that God chooses certain people to fulfill his will......"In scripture that is a fact." When this comes up I think of Paul......"Wow! Just think how many Christians he had put to death." It doesn't matter one bit if he threw a stone or not. 

God chose this man, and blinded him so he could finally see. Paul was blind to Jesus having only his fleshly sight.

But by The Will of God his spiritual eyes were opened and he saw Jesus Christ. This shows me God can choose any person out of The World, that we might think would never make the cut.

The LORD God foreknows. There can be events that God foreknows, but if we listen to him and take action, we can avoid what he foreknows will take place. Read 1 Samuel 23 and you will see what I'm referring to.

1 Samuel 23:1-13


Now they told David, "Behold, the Philistines are fighting against Keilah and are robbing the threshing floors."


Therefore David inquired of the LORD, "Shall I go and attack these Philistines?" And the LORD said to David, "Go and attack the Philistines and save Keilah."


But David's men said to him, "Behold, we are afraid here in Judah; how much more then if we go to Keilah against the armies of the Philistines?"


Then David inquired of the LORD again. And the LORD answered him, "Arise, go down to Keilah, for I will give the Philistines into your hand."


And David and his men went to Keilah and fought with the Philistines and brought away their livestock and struck them with a great blow. So David saved the inhabitants of Keilah.


When Abiathar the son of Ahimelech had fled to David to Keilah, he had come down with an ephod in his hand.


Now it was told Saul that David had come to Keilah. And Saul said, "God has given him into my hand, for he has shut himself in by entering a town that has gates and bars."


And Saul summoned all the people to war, to go down to Keilah, to besiege David and his men.


David knew that Saul was plotting harm against him. And he said to Abiathar the priest, "Bring the ephod here."


Then David said, "O LORD, the God of Israel, your servant has surely heard that Saul seeks to come to Keilah, to destroy the city on my account.


Will the men of Keilah surrender me into his hand? Will Saul come down, as your servant has heard? O LORD, the God of Israel, please tell your servant." And the LORD said, "He will come down."


Then David said, "Will the men of Keilah surrender me and my men into the hand of Saul?" And the LORD said, "They will surrender you."


Then David and his men, who were about six hundred, arose and departed from Keilah, and they went wherever they could go. When Saul was told that David had escaped from Keilah, he gave up the expedition.

The parts I underlined are key points and reveal that The LORD God foreknows what will take place and he tells David......."And the LORD said, "They will surrender you." But the men of Keilah never surrendered David to Saul, because David and his men got out of Keilah before Saul came down. 

What The LORD God foreknew never took place because David listened and took action.

Just a tidbit..

Have you ever been told that you are not normal?  But that is exactly what True Believers are to those of The World. We can't be normal to them because True Believers go the opposite direction from the rest of The World.  Think about it....."The Truth does not match up with what the world believes truth to be."

The very fact is that we are all born into the lie. If it wasn't for the drawing of The Father calling us out of this world, we’d be living the lie to this very day. 

The mainstream media is used as a weapon to guide us into thinking what they think and doing as they do.

Count me in with ya'll . Especially when I use the wording "it's a miracle" . It usually gets real quiet  and heads turn away. Not always ,thankfully,  but a good % of the time.  So have ya'll ever told someone to have a blessed day ?  And what reaction did you get.

Who was Cain referring to as every one that findeth me shall slay me? If there was nobody outside of the area that he was driven out of why is he worried that others will find him and kill him?

God places a mark on Cain so if others that may find him will know to leave him be and not kill him.

Genesis 4:13-15

And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

Also remember that the bloodline that came from Adam and Eve that leads all the way to Jesus was not from Cain or Abel, it came through Seth. This bloodline of Seth produces Enoch and on through Noah as the old world dies.

Genesis 4:25

And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

Genesis 5, tells us Adam was 130 years of age when Seth was born by Eve. And then Seth was 105 when Enos was born, which was when "men began to call on the name of the Lord." 

The son of Seth (Enos) was a special seed indeed because mankind must have been far away from God before his birth. After Enos was born then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

Genesis 4:26

And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

We know that Adam had sons and daughters after Seth because scripture says so. But no matter how many sons Adam had, the Seth seed was the special seed.

Genesis 5:4

And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:

ScaRZ wrote:
Who was Cain referring to as every one that findeth me shall slay me? If there was nobody outside of the area that he was driven out of why is he worried that others will find him and kill him?
---------------------------------------------------
Ooooooh!  You went there.                

I can't contribute, really.  You know far more about it than I.
My focus has been on the Coming Kingdom. Even that took me a good while to realize.  I remember actually denying I was a 'Kingdom Now' believer.  Until one day it dawned on me...  
So, obviously it's not yet.  But it is in a state of Becoming..
and that's where I put my time and energies.
And I don't like spooky things.    
----
So..very quietly and in little tiny print...could this revelation you've brought into the open have any bearing on the origin of blood sacrifice? Maybe yes, maybe no. 

MAYBE Genesis 6 was talking about an earlier time, not in chronological order. (?)
Anyway, I'm glad you brought it up. 
What do you think about it all?

Dove wrote:

What do you think about it all?

I've thought about this many times for many years of my life. The Bible doesn't go into any details at all. The events are together in a flash and doesn't cover how many years had passed before Cain killed Abel......"How old were they?" 

These were not the only two children of Adam and Eve......"Adam lived to be 930 years old." Think of all the children and grandchildren after Cain and Abel's birth could have been born by the time this event took place and after. Just because Cain and Abel were the oldest children doesn't mean others didn't marry and have children before Cain. It seems for sure Abel never had a wife or offspring. Abel's seed was replaced by Seth.

We know that Cain has a wife (sister) and children born to them after he is exiled as Genesis reads. Before his exile we are not told of any offspring born for him.

The other brothers and sisters of Cain and their offspring, and their children's offspring could be the one's Cain feared would find him and kill him. All as a revenge killing for Cain's slaying of Abel.

If we believe Adam and Eve were the only two humans on the whole earth to populate it, then this could be what took place. If not then it would be a whole different ballgame.

To be honest we don't have much to build upon......."Only more speculation."

Once we get to The Flood in the days of Noah a new replenishing begins all over again.

I heard a statement once:


"God isn't stranger than we think.  He's stranger than we CAN think."
-----
And God Himself said, 
Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
---------------
We can't trust history or archeology for truth.
We can't count on the Word to reveal everything. And I don't feel that's the right way to read it anyway.  I do believe it tells us what is ESSENTIAL for us to understand God's intentions with, by and for man, how Paradise (in the Presence of God) was lost, and how it can be regained. 




Nowhere is there evidence of 'man' existing earlier than Adam in 'our' Bible, and that supports your view that Cain must have feared his children or his other siblings and their offspring. 
(if it's in Enoch, I wouldn't be aware of that)




The order of Creation:  5:29 mins.

God is All there is.   So you can see my dilemma (in one minute).    

I agree Dove. For everything that we have questions about, The Bible would be so huge it would need to be volumes after volumes. Think how much material it would take about creation, not only humans and our home planet but "All Creation".

The whole period of time before the flood just between Adam and Noah would be massive.

We would never get through "Everything" in our life time.

When the Abyss is opened, will it be opened silently?.......OR will it be as many think....."BOOM!" and out pours the evil on earth in the sight of all men's eyes? Remember, most eyes will be blind and will not understand a revealing has taken place. Only a very small remnant will be awake.

2 Thessalonians 2:3

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Before the opening and pouring out of the contents of the Abyss, apostasy was blooming, now get ready for the full portion. After the Abyss opens we get the full portion that is brought about by the dark forces and their King. This I view as "Strong Delusion". 

This strong delusion will paralyze their victims into believing "A Lie". False doctrine, false signs and lying wonders. 

Thessalonians 2:9

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Thessalonians 2:11

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:


Why was Jesus warning over and over to not be caught sleeping? 

All this must occur "First" before the Day of The Lord....."That Day"