From Beginning Until The End Of Days----->

I can't understand how people believe and follow this woman. If she was a true believer of The Lord God she would never allow anyone to bow down to her in any way. These people that bow to her must not read and study The Bible "At All".  This is idolatry. Think how the devil tried to get Jesus to bow to him. Same thing goes for bowing down to angels or anything........"We bow only to The Lord God." 

Read The Bible!! These verses below are a very few examples from only The New Testament, The Bible is full of them. 

Matthew 4:9-10........Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” 10 Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’”


Acts 10:25-26........When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him.....But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am a man.” 


Revelation 19:10.........Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Wow..... This is so scary -  as in  how people can be deceived and conned.   If I hadn't heard it I wouldn't believe it was real. .   It  once was  rare to  find such false teachers and deceivers .   Woe  to those that lead the gullible astray. Say to them " In the name of Jesus, behind me satan."

bordercollie wrote:

Wow..... This is so scary -  as in  how people can be deceived and conned.   If I hadn't heard it I wouldn't believe it was real. .   It  once was  rare to  find such false teachers and deceivers .   Woe  to those that lead the gullible astray. Say to them " In the name of Jesus, behind me satan."

It's sad to see so many people not read and study scripture. We all need to "Make Time" for reading for ourselves. So many use the excuse of not having time...."Then make time." The Lord God wants to come first in all our lives. Don't depend on others to knock on the door for you. 

What spirit do these carry with them. As scripture reads....."We are to test the spirits." 

1 John 4:1........Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world."


Kathryn Krick isn't the only false teacher. The world is full of the wolves. If we really want the truth...."We can't blame anyone but ourselves for being deceived." We allow the deception to take root.

The Adversary and his forces are masters at the art of adding, omitting and mixing. Add a few words here, omit a few more, then mix all of them together and what do we get?....."A false teaching, a lie."

To be truly positive in the eyes of some, you have to risk appearing negative in the eyes of others. (Criss Jami)

Dreams have only one owner at a time. That’s why dreamers are lonely. (William Faulkner)

You will never find time for anything. If you want time you must make it. (Charles Buxto)

Enjoy yourself. It’s later than you think. (Chinese proverb)

Time flies over us, but leaves its shadow behind. (Nathaniel Hawthorne)

Ordinary people think merely of spending time, great people think of using it. (Arthur Schopenhauer)

The most important thing is to find out what is the most important thing. (Shunryu Suzuki)

What you really value is what you miss, not what you have. (Jorge Luis Borges)

The key to everything: give yourself permission to be who you really are. (Susan Cain)

Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else’s opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation. (Oscar Wilde)

We have never arrived. We are in a constant state of becoming. (Bob Dylan)

A clear rejection is always better than a fake promise. (Zig Ziglar)

Those who stand for nothing fall for anything. (Alexander Hamilton)

Remember: eventually, no one will remember you. (Jack Butcher)

Our practice is to cultivate good seeds in the soil of our mind, knowing that they will mature and bloom in their own time. (Thich Nhat Hanh)

The mainstream media is a weapon that is used to guide populations into thinking what they think and doing as they want. 

The media can control humanity and they don't even realize what is taking place....."Deception" It's a working force with set agendas. Media can influence an entire population to become angry, violent, aggressive, insane, sexually aroused, stupid, compliant, or passive.

Think of the puppet master moving the strings as desired.

I was going to revert to the standard explanation: that the Smith Mundt Act of 1948, as reauthorized by Obama, allows them to propagandize the American people.
It may have once been reasonable (in 1948) to prevent 'national secrets' from being known by foreign enemies.  But we know now how it's being used against the citizens of the nation.

But a quick search puts the 'right' under the First Amendment.

Lies splashed across page 1 of newspapers are sometimes retracted or corrected days later, buried on page 7. Few see it, few remember.
-----

As Mika Brzezinski of MSNBC Morning Joe program said, it's OUR JOB to tell them what to think.
And they call themselves 'commentators'. not reporters.


Where is the 'flag' that alerts to an opinion rather than fact?
Which fox should be in charge of the hen house?

It's actually a little tricky.  Where are the 'facts' in two conflicting eyewitness reports?  
One solution would be in presenting both reports.
The old motto:  "We report, you decide."  And "Fair and balanced"
But that's not what's happened.
Now even 'eyewitnesses' are paid actors.

Where is the solution today?
Do your own research
Think for yourself
Share what you find with others
Be ready to defend-prove what you say from what you've discovered.
Q
(Q is a military intelligence operation aimed at extricating the country from all enemies, both foreign and domestic thereby saving the Republic and preserving it for future generations)
It does involve 'irregular warfare' in a most brilliant manner, for the sake of saving lives.   And it's working! The foundation principle is: Given the truth, good people will do the right thing and will fight for the truth. 

Check out Mika's father:
https://search.brave.com/search?q=Agnew+Brazinski&source=desktop


Mainstream News is dictated by Corporate $$$. That is their goal. 
And they never let morals and ethics interfere. 
It's up to us to walk away and make the better way.

Who is the 'prince of the power of the air'?

Good post Dove!.......There are media channels like MSNBC that push "Hate". 

Yes! The power of the air......"The prince".....The one influencing those in his back pocket.....The Adversary (Satan) is the puppet master.

Revelation 16:15......."Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

Jesus Christ is going to bless those who are watching and keeping their garments on. I believe keeping their garments on is a symbol of the covering of the shed blood of The Lord Jesus Christ. We believers remain in Jesus Christ, we keep the faith and endure until the end........"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." (Mark 13:13)

Many don't see what I believe is very clear in the words of Jesus in Revelation 16:15........."If they are to keep their garments on, this means they can lose their garments." Someone can only lose their garments, if they have received them." They lose their garments from the shame of falling away (Apostasy). This is why believers are to always be watching and not to be caught sleeping. If we do not watch, then we have fallen asleep....."We have lost our garments."

I had a response yesterday, but it was getting long. 
Having the right answer is imperative, and I want to know too,
what that is.
-----------------

Biblegateway's verse of the day today is


Isaiah 41:10 Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.

Yesterday's word was 
Psalm 119:7 (New International Version)
 
I will praise you with an upright heart as I learn your righteous laws.
----------------
  

I was checking scripture to see if it said the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin, as many have heard that said.
But it doesn't say that.  It says:

John 16:
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
--------------------
Forgiveness of sin is offered to ALL the world, whomsoever believes Jesus paid the price once and for all-Whomsoever believes in their heart and confesses with their mouth.
Amen !
----------
Whether it's the Voice of the Accuser, or in observing the (wicked) world, or a frustrated mother trying to get their kid to behave, we can fall back into thinking we must earn our Salvation, and that's just not true.  It is a gift from God that no 'man' deserves and no man can earn. 
Salvation is not based on 'works'.  It is 'receiving the Truth in Faith'. 
Bible Faith is 'I believe it with all my heart, mind and soul, fully convinced,  Salvation is through Jesus and Jesus Alone. 
BECAUSE it is not the deeds of the flesh, but by His Presence within
us that He knows us as His. 

Even our 'Good' (Righteous) works are by Him, and not of our
own understanding.  We, the New Creature in Christ, are led
to do Good works of His Choosing, and He Himself does it. 
God said, OUR righteousness is as filthy rags.  


What WE determine as "Good" counts for nothing.
Even our rewards are NOT by OUR 'works'.
"Lord, did we not do mighty things in Your Name?"
"Depart from Me, for I never knew you."


So where is THIS answer-this Right(eous) Understanding?
In surrender.
I'm trying to get there in the "Dying' thread. 
If Jesus said, "Why do you call Me Good? There is none Good
save (except for) God." How then should we regard ourselves?
---------------
I'm coming back to the original post.    

On the garments, the 'covering'.
I'll be brief for the moment, and make one statement.

"It is not sin that causes one to lose their covering."

Are we agreed?  

With the exception of the one unpardonable sin: blaspheming the Holy Spirit,
(which I assumed we all know.)  But I should've added it to avoid any question.

I'm not trying to send either of us on a scriptural chase, though I'm willing, of course.
I just thought if my statement is our agreed upon foundation, we'd come to a 
quicker exegesis re 'the covering/garments.  

Dove wrote:

On the garments, the 'covering'.
I'll be brief for the moment, and make one statement.

"It is not sin that causes one to lose their covering."

Are we agreed?  

 
This below is how I view it Dove.

If we lose our garments (The covering blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ) every time we sin, then the covering doesn't cover our sins.

I'm a sinner......."We all are sinners". There is no amount of works I can do to be saved. I can never be good enough. If it was possible for me to only have sinned one time in my entire life, that was one time too many. If it's one sin or a billion sins, "Without repentance" I never wear the garments (The covering blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ). 

We lose our garments (The covering blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ), "IF" we fall away (Apostatize....abandon the faith in The One True LORD God). 

The Lord Jesus Christ will never leave us or forsake us, but we can leave and forsake him (Abandon). "IF" we continue to believe, enduring until the end, we remain covered by the garments (The covering blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ).

Jesus was tempted but chose to do The Will of The Father. Jesus always made the right decisions, he did not sin. Theologians, past and present, have been divided on the question of whether Jesus could have sinned. 

If Jesus divine nature prevented him from sinning, how then did he obey the law of God as the second Adam? 

I believe Jesus with being part man (Human Nature)......."Had the ability to sin........ and with his Divine Nature had the ability to not sin." 

Not because he could not sin, but because he would not sin.

I look at it like this......."The Adversary was not trying to get God (Divine Nature) to sin. The Adversary was trying to get the man (Human Nature) of Jesus to sin, so he would not be qualified to be the Savior. 

I believe it was the man (Human Nature) that carried out the mission of the second Adam on our behalf. If not what was the purpose of his man (Human Nature) side at all? If he could not sin with his human side then the temptations, the tests, and his assuming of the responsibility of the first Adam would have served no purpose.

Absolutely great posts ya'll.  That's how I look at it as well.  I believe a person that once had the wedding garments but then tossed them aside has lost them.  I think back to the person that arrives at the wedding without the garments and is thrown outside. Just works won't get it.

THANK YOU for taking the time, ScaRZ.  
  Percent! Right down the line.


THIS was particularly significant to Right Understanding-


Quote:
If Jesus divine nature prevented him from sinning, how then did he obey the law of God as the second Adam? 

I believe Jesus with being part man (Human Nature)......."Had the ability to sin........ and with his Divine Nature had the ability to not sin." 

Not because he could not sin, but because he would not sin.
---------
CHOICE!  TO FOLLOW, TO OBEY. 
TO SURRENDER MY WILL FOR THE  WILL OF GOD. 
God granted man the Freedom of choice and will not violate it.

------------------
So WILLFUL is important. Whose Will?
"Not my Will, but Thy will be done"

"The Law convicts."  
Romans 5:13
For until the law, sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Because no man could keep the Law, it could not save.
So, as always, what is impossible to man, God Himself does for us.

To understand sin, it seems we need to separate 'willful disobedience'
from 'not knowing'.  Yet, we are charged to know.
I'm thinking of those who have not heard the Gospel.  Are they condemned?
It seems they are not. 
------------

Today's Biblegateway verse:  1 John 1:7
 
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

I went back to Romans 5:
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
-----------------------

Dove wrote:

CHOICE!  TO FOLLOW, TO OBEY. 
TO SURRENDER MY WILL FOR THE  WILL OF GOD. 
God granted man the Freedom of choice and will not violate it.

That's it 100%!!

If The LORD God could've blotted out mankind's sin without putting on the very flesh of men and dying as a man, then that would've been the case......."The LORD God is perfect." 

Something else I believe that is very important. Adam (Man) was given by The LORD God authority to rule this speck in the universe called Earth. Think of this also.....Jesus with being a man has the authority to rule this earth. Jesus Christ will one day set up his Kingdom on earth, a Kingdom that will be an eternal Kingdom.

Satan is not a man, he rules only by influencing mankind......."He is the puppet master." There is no doubting "IF" Satan (The Adversary) can have a son that is part man, then that son of his can obtain the authority to take over the rulership of this earth. Satan as well as all the Angels, Watchers or any other beings do not and will not ever have the authority to rule the earth......."But they have, can and will influence man to do their will."

Dove wrote:

I'm thinking of those who have not heard the Gospel.  Are they condemned?
It seems they are not. 

This is something that I've thought of many times in my life. How can those who have died without, be judged as those with?

I've read and heard many teachings, preaching's, views, thoughts and beliefs on this subject, but remain feeling something is missing for me.

How is it those who die without, as well as those dying in the womb or too young in their lives, and others without the mental capacity, be judged with the same outcomes as those with the full knowledge of either believing or rejecting?

When I used the word "Outcomes" I think all of us understand what I was referring to.........Heaven (Eternal Life) or The Lake of Fire (Second Death).

Just goes to show we don't know everything no matter how hard we try, doesn't it.   

One thing we uncovered was that sin was on the earth but NOT imputed to man until the Law
was given. Perhaps that somehow fits. 
If one does not know, or is incapable of knowing, then how can they be held accountable?
And in Hebrew scripture there is an 'age of accountability'. It's when children are bar mitzvah(ed),
at age 13.  

Then I've been bugged since yesterday with the word 'KNOWINGLY', as pertains to sin.
----
The Lake of Fire  (I had to look at it.)
And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. Revelation 19:20 (NASB)

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.  Revelation 20:10 (NASB)


Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14 (NASB)


And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15 (NASB)
-----------------------
'PREDESTINED' comes to mind too. But on a search, it's not showing up in the KJV.
It does in other translations: You'll have to look at it.  This is the stuff you can't see if I try to copy it.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=predestined&t=ESV#s=s_primary_0_1     

We have to remember to be kind and loving to ourselves.  We Love God, and enjoy searching out a matter.
Here's a touch of levity.  I read great gobs of posts each day. But nothing quite gets me like the
ones about religious teaching. 

In one such thread an Anon stated, "Jesus spoke Greek".      
Praise God, that won't disqualify him !    
And we've all heard a lot worse!

Did you hear the Lord's Prayer in Aramaic in 'Bible facts'?  I thought it was so beautiful.
The Lord's Prayer direct translation from Aramaic to English

https://www.tiktok.com/@ferniesbaked/video/7127857283178057002?lang=en

Dove wrote:

One thing we uncovered was that sin was on the earth but NOT imputed to man until the Law
was given. Perhaps that somehow fits. 
If one does not know, or is incapable of knowing, then how can they be held accountable?

 
Great words Dove!!

Here is something I think is very important when we comprehend the law. Has the law of morality always been written in our hearts? Mankind was created in the image and likeness of God. The law of God has always existed....."It's the gold standard of morality".....(God is the gold standard). This is much deeper than only the time period of Moses and scripture.

We know Adam and Eve for sure knew what was good and what was evil after they consumed the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. As scripture reads........"Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever” (Genesis 3:22)

The law of morality that is written in our hearts should be the ultimate confirmation there is a Supreme Creator. Without a Supreme Creator, where did it come from? Look at non believers of The LORD God from all around the globe that have for thousands of years understood what is right and what is wrong.

If there was no law of morality written in everyone's heart, without hearing, never reading anything about God and the law of God, how would humans have a knowledge of what is good and what is evil, what is right and what is wrong?

There is no way we would be able to have any knowledge of, or any understanding of what is right and what is wrong, what is good and what is evil.

Without the law of morality, murder would not be wrong. Humans would have no idea what doing good was. How could people understand the difference, when they have no knowledge or no understanding of right and wrong?

Quoting ScaRZ:
The law of morality that is written in our hearts should be the ultimate confirmation there is a Supreme Creator.
-----------------
That which you're describing is 'hidden', veiled. It too must be sought.
And right now the best way for me to give a clear answer is to use
other's words.

This is the search I used:
BIBLE: MAN GAVE HIMSELF OVER TO ALL MANNER OF WICKEDNESS


And I haven't verified that these verses say what they are purported to say, but..
Here are the quotes:

"In summary, the Bible teaches that we are born into sin, inheriting a sinful nature from Adam. This understanding is crucial for grasping humanity’s condition and the need for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ."

• Ephesians 2:2-3: “By nature, you are children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.”
  
  
  
• Psalm 58:3: “The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.”
  
  
• -----------------
  
  

"According to the Bible, humanity’s natural inclination is towards wickedness. The passage in Genesis 6:5 describes this concept: “And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”


This idea is echoed in other biblical accounts:

• Ezekiel 16:49: “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.”
  
  
• Romans 1:28: “And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;”
  
  
• Jude 1:10: “But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.”
  
  

"These passages illustrate humanity’s tendency to give themselves over to all manner of wickedness, including pride, idolatry, and moral corruption. The Bible portrays this as a universal human condition, inherent to human nature since the fall of Adam and Eve."


me: in this summary they quote:

• Ezekiel 16:49: “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.”
  
  
  
• Romans 1:28: “And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;”
  
  
  
• Jude 1:10: “But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.”
  
  
  

It is the curse of life of the natural man brought about by disobedience to God.
--------------
 And we know that when we come to God in obedience to His Word, we are
given and "New Heart" to replace our stony heart, and a New Mind to understand the Will of God, and a New and Eternal Life, overcoming death (the wages of sin). 




What causes a person to seek God, I'd need to save for tomorrow.  

Dove wrote:

"In summary, the Bible teaches that we are born into sin, inheriting a sinful nature from Adam. 

I once believed this also but not anymore. I read and studied and now see things differently than most on this subject. Michael Heiser and I take the view that humanity does not inherit the guilt of sin from Adam, but death for all humanity was brought about by the sin of Adam. Death is what spread to all mankind.

I will post below some of Michael Heiser's work. He can lay it all out much better than myself.

**********************

Written by Michael Heiser

I have to start in on Romans 5:12. This verse is on my short list of most abused and misunderstood texts in the Bible. I’m going to start with an egregious abuse of it, and then move to problems traditional interpretations of it create for biblical theology, whether mainline denominations realize it or not (frankly, the views are so entrenched by centuries of repetition that Christian theologians have simply invented answers to the problems that also cannot be legitimized in the text). Romans 5:12 is an excellent example of whether we are going to get our theology from the text or import it into the text.


(NKJV): Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.


(NASB): Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.


(ESV): Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned.


Now for the abuse. Romans 5:12 is commonly used by strict creationists (24-hour day, six solar days for creation) to argue that there can be no fossils before the fall.


Anyone see a problem in the plain text of Romans 5:12? How about “through one MAN…” and “death spread to all MEN.” The text says absolutely nothing about animals – zero. Whatever happened at the Fall resulted in a transition from (apparent) immortality to mortality for humankind. Animal life has to be read into the text for the purpose of promoting a specific view of the fossil record. Nothing is said of any other life than humankind, so we should not infer anything about it. The verse cannot be used to justify the idea that animal life (and of course plant life) could not and did not die before the Fall. To argue anything in that regard from this verse is to insert it into the verse.


My question, to start the ball rolling, is simple: If ALL humans since Adam inherited Adam’s guilt (however that happens), then why does Jesus get off the hook? He is 100% human in biblical theology. His genealogy goes straight back to Adam (see Luke 3:23-38; esp. v. 38). Now, I know what the standard answers are. “Oh, Jesus was God, so he didn’t have original sin.” This avoids the question; it doesn’t answer it: he’s was also 100% human. To deny that is deny the incarnation It wouldn’t be a real or actual incarnation then). How about “He was virgin born, and we all know that sin is transmitted through the male-after all, Jesus is compared to Adam in Romans 5, not Eve.” Also evasive and poorly thought-through. I would hope it’s clear that all women are also sinners and have original sin. Mary was a woman, and she was the mother of Jesus. There is also no verse in the Bible that says sin is transmitted through only males. Another problem – so, if we cloned a woman and implanted that clone in another woman, would it be sinless since there was no male father? Of course not – to be human is to be under the curse of Adam. But this is a modern illustration of the same logic as theologians use to get Jesus off the hook (i.e., to stiff arm Romans 5:12 when it comes to Jesus). The problem is straightforward: we either assume the full humanity of Jesus or we don’t. The full humanity of Jesus–laid out so clearly and repeatedly in the New Testament–isn’t what’s causing the original sin problem with him; it’s the way we understand original sin and misuse Romans 5:12.


I could add that, isn’t it curious how NOWHERE ELSE in the Old Testament do we see any writer looking back to Genesis 3 as an explanation for the transmission of sin to all humankind? Kind of curious, to say the least. And there’s yet another problem. How is it that we get hard nosed about ALL humans being infected by the sin of the first Adam, but we want to qualify the effect of the sacrifice of the second Adam? You know why – we want to avoid universalism.


I don’t believe that Adam’s fall affected all humanity by transmitting Adam’s guilt to all humans. I believe Adam’s fall affected all humanity by depriving all humans forever more of the conditions under which they could abide with God in a state of non-sinfulness. Adam and Eve were the only humans to ever live in that condition. After the Fall humans were destined to die.

I started to write and now see your response ScaRZ. 
And that is going to take study on my part.
-----
I only wrote that last night I said,
"And I haven't verified that these verses say what they are purported to say.


What I meant was I had not pulled them up and read them in context to assure they lined up with the point being
made."
----------
I haven't had a very good morning, finding a post first thing where I was 'rebuked' for not opening my thinking and seeing that  the Holy Spirit is female, the feminine aspect of God.

Now I know for a fact that the Voice of the Spirit is male.
And Jesus didn't suffer from any 'gender identity crisis'.
And what is being taught in the 'chats' is sacrilege, and has gained many many, too too many, people who are unlearned and happy to 'find out' that's (supposedly) okay with God.


(How about Jesus didn't die on the Cross.  It was Thomas,
in His place.)  Then Jesus skipped off and had babies with
Mary Magdalene, because what?  Life in the flesh is better than the Glory of God and Heaven? 
And how then can one claim to know Jesus and HOW do
we receive the Holy Spirit?
Sorry, I'm just venting. But, does God test man like this?
No.  But He'll allow satan to test 'man'.


So far I've just 'unfollowed' some of the most egregious
ones, but as it keeps happening in my face, I need to
wait on God's direction in the matter.
Leave them to their delusions?
Speak Truth and what-let them block me?  FINE!
I just have to do something first with my 'indignation' over the lies before speaking.     


So, Christians will be killed before this is over?
We do still stand in the way of their good times.

I just read thru the Heiser material.  I'll try again in the morning.   
I did notice we both posted the word 'egregious' this morning.

And  I did just get an answer in my emails to my query of whether to engage the 'unlearned' or walk away.

It was from a ministry and it was basically just a scripture reference.

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
----
I'm relieved.  I can 'hold-keep' my Peace. 
---
I just read the rest of the verse:


18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
    

One of the main reasons for me bringing up Romans 5:12 was because how it can shine a light on two subjects we have gotten into lately.

First, how Jesus was just as much a man (100% Man) as he was God (100% God)......Jesus was The Son of Man just as much as he was The Son of God. If we take the traditional view that all humanity inherits the guilt of Adams sin, then a human fetus in the womb is a sinner......That guilt of Adams sin "somehow" is transferred at conception.

Jesus would then have also received the sin nature of Adams guilt......."Jesus would never have qualified as our garments of covering all believers from our sins.  Jesus would never been the lamb "Without Blemish". Jesus would have already been a sinner at conception.

The only thing that the text of Romans 5:12 says was passed on to all mankind was "Death". Jesus never ever sinned but died just as all of us sinners will die......"If we are not part of the meeting in the air and the change." All humans will sin, without exception.

In the view I now take, one’s own sins produce guilt before God. In the traditional view, existing as a human means at conception you’re already guilty before God. 

So now that takes us to.....

Second, what about all those (babies, aborted, a fetus, the fertilized egg, the severely retarded, the infant, etc.) 

With the traditional view all these would carry also the guilt of Adams sin. All these would already carry that human sin nature. These would have a guilty sin condition before God.

I will repeat myself again.....In the view I now take, one’s own sins produce guilt before God. In the traditional view, existing as a human means at conception you’re already guilty before God.

Love ya, ScaRZ, and I'm going to attempt a response.
But it seems to me that trying to force the Word to reveal all Truth, ESPECIALLY
when not taken in Light of the Whole of the Word, leads to confusion.

I think you were right when you first thought about it. 
When it makes sense, don't look for any other sense.'  
God is not the author of confusion.
And the message cannot be overly complicated if it is to be received and spread
throughout all peoples of the world.

I think in this case Heiser is straining at a gnat, and it took him into weird and
unnecessary places.

If I change my mind while going through this, I'll definitely say so!   

Heiser:
First, how Jesus was just as much a man (100% Man) as he was God (100% God)......Jesus was The Son of Man just as much as he was The Son of God. If we take the traditional view that all humanity inherits the guilt of Adams sin, then a human fetus in the womb is a sinner......That guilt of Adams sin "somehow" is transferred at conception.

Jesus would then have also received the sin nature of Adams guilt......."Jesus would never have qualified as our garments of covering all believers from our sins.  Jesus would never been the lamb "Without Blemish". Jesus would have already been a sinner at conception.
------------------------------------
Hence the 'virgin birth'. (not a natural man).

• Gabriel appeared to Mary, announcing that she would conceive a son, Jesus, through the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:26-38, RSV).
  
  
• Mary asked how this could be, since she had never had a man (Luke 1:34, RSV).
  
  
• Gabriel replied that the Holy Spirit would come upon her, and the power of the Most High would overshadow her (Luke 1:35, RSV).
  
  
• Exodus 34:7: God visits the iniquity of the fathers on the children and children’s children, to the third and fourth generation.
  
  
• Deuteronomy 5:9-10: God is a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children
  
• ----------------
  

Scripture says Jesus was born from above.   He may have lived as a man, but He was NOT
just a man.  
He came to teach of God, and to provide the Way back to the Father.
That the heart of the Father is Love, Healing and Reconciliation. 
-------------------
I just found a nugget.  (Jesus was 12. Younger than the age of accountability in Hebrew practice)
45 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.
46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.
52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
-------------------------
John the Baptist, a prophet of God, knew who God was sending and recognized Jesus immediately when he saw Him.

Dove......I understand you take the traditional view and that's your choice. I've heard it, I've read it all many, many times. I knew you would go with "The Virgin Birth". How many times do we need to go down this path? 

The Catholics knew there was a big problem so why do you think they worship Mary as they do? 


This is a good video about this subject from Michael Heiser. It's only around 15 minutes long. Listen to it, because it covers pretty much everything, if this isn't enough to show why I view it as I do, I see no reason to continue and keep repeating the same thing.

I hope to say something here eventually. 
As soon as I get through news plus the videos here, plus, plus, etc. .

I hear Heiser talking about 'guilty of sin' and carrying Adam's guilt.

I don't see it that way.  I see that we , since Adam and Eve's expulsion, are born into a 'fallen world' which was the consequence of  Eve and Adam's disobedience to God.  
God created man to live in the Garden, and He visited them there. 
But Disobedience to God is not on the menu.  
And there was no propitiation for sin at that point.

The sins of the flesh, born into and conditioned by the ways of the fallen world are many, and we do not have real fellowship with God again until we accept the Forgiveness He's offered, AND seek Him out.

Jesus said 'Don't look in the world for Me.  That's NOT where I can be found."
Instead He said, 'come out of the world and do not partake of it's sins'

So where do we find Jesus?  Within!  When we are 'born again of the Spirit'
Where The Kingdom of God is.  In and with the Spirit.
EXACTLY as He told us.
"The old is passed away and we are made New Creatures in Christ"
"You cannot put new wine into old wineskins"
ALL things are made NEW.
---------------
I heard some of his dissection of the Life of Jesus, and wow.  Just wow.

In some reading yesterday, I was reminded that the blood of Jesus is not to 'cover sin'.

It's not a 'covering'.  It is a cleansing 'as if we had never sinned'. 
--------
Isaiah 1:
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
---------------------------------

I have learned over time to be 'solution oriented'.  Yes, I take personal responsibility for my sins.
I understand how 'once I was blind'.

But if I spend my time 'guilty' or remorseful, I'm ignoring the solution.  And I want to get to
the Solution as quickly as possible.

Another verse on 'forgiveness of sin':

Micah 7
18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.
19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.
------------------
Having been forgiven, washed clean, what do I do?  I follow Jesus back to the Garden:
the Kingdom of God. 
Luke 4:43   And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.
He didn't say 'I've come to be the sacrifice for your sins."
53 times He said I've come to teach the Kingdom.

The last post got stuck in a color conundrum.

The Kingdom of God is the Holy Spirit of God.

Having been born again, and surrendered in Obedience to the Spirit of God, He, 
in us, shows forth the Kingdom on earth. 
Now 'partly' (as we are yet in the flesh). Soon to be seen clearly.

ALL LIFE and life experience flows from WITHIN.   From the inner man.
Either from the 'fallen nature' or the New Man in Christ.

This is nothing I can do for myself.  I cannot make myself Holy and Acceptable to a Holy God so that He might Live in me.
What I CAN do is come before the Throne, in Jesus' Name, surrendered to the Will of God.

What I can do is 'die daily' so that I am conformed and transformed to
the Image and Likeness of His Son.
From the inner Nature of the Holy Spirt, to the outward works by which
He makes His Presence known.
Woe to one who thinks to take credit himself for the works of God.

When God looks at us, He looks on our spirit.  Does he see His Spirit in us?
The same Spirit He sent to earth in His Son?
And therefore, we too are known by Him as His sons and daughters.
That's what matters. 
It is not I who lives, but He who lives in me.
"The flesh counts for nothing"
Once forgiven, sin counts for nothing.

Who am I to judge Mary, for instance.  God chose her to birth the Son.  End of discussion.
God set apart and Anointed prophets, kings and priests too.  

The MESSAGE of the virgin birth is confirmed later in scripture, as Jesus was
'born from Above', sent by the Father. Was with God from the BEGINNING!
He was not just 'any man'.  He took on the body and physical experience of man to accomplish God's Plan.
Part of that was so man could have no excuse.  "Jesus was tempted like any man'
He knew the sufferings of man.
In other words, He was not asking anything of us that would be beyond us with
God's strength. 

Who am I to try to determine if Jesus as a child, sinned. 
God has not instructed us to do that. 
And to what end would we?
Mary was tasked to teach Him about His mission.
Other men recognized Him as Messiah when he was a baby.
John 'knew Him as Messiah' while John was still in the womb.

After Egypt, we don't know what He did till they found Him in the Temple at age 12. 
When they said, 'your mother and father are looking for you.'
He said, who is my mother. Who is My Father.
And told them they should have known He would be about His Father's business.

If the Word doesn't quicken someone's heart, resonate in their Spirit,
then cutting it apart does not make it better. 
Really NOT better.

Thank you Jesus that I do not have to literally crucify my flesh in order
to be allowed into the Kingdom, partake of Eternal Life in Your Presence.
You did that for me.

Dove wrote:

Who am I to try to determine if Jesus as a child, sinned. 
God has not instructed us to do that. 
And to what end would we?
Mary was tasked to teach Him about His mission.

We know from scripture Jesus "Never Sinned". Never is never. If he did sin then he did not qualify as our savior......His death on the cross would be no different than any other humans death....."the blood would not cover and cleanse our sins and all humanity remain doomed."

Where in The Bible can we read that Mary was tasked to teach Jesus about his mission?....."I smell Catholic doctrine." 

Mary was his earthly mother and as an earthly mother she taught her son many things. But as far as taking on the task of teaching Jesus his mission of teaching the gospel, going to the cross and dying for all our sins, there is no verse I have ever read that teaches that. There is no doubting she was a very special woman, but she was just a human as we all are. She was not without sin and was in the same boat as all humans are.

Jesus did The Will of The Father, It was God The Father's mission that was carried out by The Son of God Jesus (The Christ, The Messiah).


Dove......What I see from you is jumping all over the place. Just look at only your last few post. The main subject I brought up first was Romans 5:12 and you danced all around it. I don't have the time to answer everything, or give follow up responses....."It's impossible for me."

I've got work that keeps me plenty busy, that has absolutely nothing to do with me trying to keep this "one" thread up. I don't have the same amount of time to spend on the forum as you do. I have only one active thread, while you have......"How Many?"

Here is the full layout link to Michael Heiser's work on Romans 5:12. I've read and studied all of it and if anyone else is interested then this puts it all into one place. 

https://drmsh.com/romans-512/

Here is the series of posts on Romans 5:12. I do not take the traditional view — that the verse is about the transmission of Adamic guilt. I think it is inserted into the text. However, all humans are sinners (presuming they are allowed to live) and in need of Christ for salvation (i.e., salvation is only through Christ and is not merited in any way). For my reasons and what I think, see the list.

Where in The Bible can we read that Mary was tasked to teach Jesus about his mission?....."I smell Catholic doctrine." 

You think I was suggesting she was divine?  NO.    
I said only what the Bible said about her.

And there's more:

According to the biblical accounts, Gabriel told Mary the following about her baby Jesus:

• Name: Mary was instructed to name the child Jesus (Luke 1:31).
  
  
• Greatness: Gabriel declared that Jesus would be great (Luke 1:32).
  
  
• Son of the Most High: Jesus would be called the Son of the Most High God (Luke 1:32).
  
  
• Throne of David: The Lord God would give Jesus the throne of his ancestor David (Luke 1:32).
  
  
• Virgin Birth: Gabriel explained that the Holy Spirit would come upon Mary, and God’s power would rest on her, resulting in the conception of Jesus without a human father (Luke 1:26-27, 34-35).
  
  

These revelations emphasized Jesus’ divine nature, his royal lineage, and his unique birth, setting him apart as the Messiah and Savior of humanity.
----------------------------
me:
She was the one (at the wedding) who launched his ministry with the miracle of water to wine.  He told her His time had not yet come, yet He did as she said. 
----
I expected she had some 'Divine' guidance in raising Him. 
Most mothers (and fathers too) do if they can perceive it. 
--------

Yes, you made your point on Romans based on Heiser's writings.
However, as I see it entirely differently, along with much else that Heiser said, I don't think it's wrong or inappropriate on an open forum
to present a different point of view.  
I'm really not trying to be difficult. 

Let the reader decide what might benefit their understanding. 
I've said all I want to about it too, so no worries. 

Once again you've danced around what you wrote. You can not from scripture show any text that reads as you have written, these are your words as you posted............"Mary was tasked to teach Him about His mission."

If this is what you believe that's up to you. But it never says this in The Bible, it's only your opinion. 

I could care less if you have a different point of view or anyone else...."This is a forum." I most certainly have a different point of view than you, and in this one active thread that I created I will not back down. You "Dove" have how many active threads on the forum....."Many". 

Where in scripture has God The Father given Mary or any human the "Task" of teaching Jesus about what his mission is?........"His mission was to teach The Gospel that leads to his death on the cross, burial, resurrection, and ascension."

You post things Dove that have nothing to do with what I was referring to. 

If you don't want to read, watch, listen to anything that I post from Michael Heiser I don't force you or anyone else. I post them because I think Michael is the best human teacher I've ever come across. We differ on some things, but very few. That certainly doesn't make me right and him wrong. I'm so glad that his work is still alive after his death.

I'm ready to move forward to something else.

Where in the video did Michael Heiser ever say Jesus was a sinner?....."Prove it!!" I've listened to it two times and it isn't there at all. I know Michael Heiser's work and there is no way he has ever said that in any of his work. That is total BS.

Dove you try to be right so much, you blind yourself. If you are forcing yourself to listen to the video then this shows you have no true desire to get the facts straight. Your mind is already made up before you read, listen or watch.

I answer nothing.......I end this before I type something I will regret.


Anyone who needs the full transcript of the video, click on the video at Youtube and go down to........... This clip is taken from the Naked Bible Podcast. It was part of an answer to a question about abortion and what happens to babies who are aborted.   Click on more...then Show transcript. It then pops up on the right side.

You're right.   I was wrong.  I didn't listen far enough.
Please accept my apology. 
My argument was not with you, but with Heiser's words.

I ran my own approximate timeline to check myself on what I
thought I heard.

4:03  Jesus is the descendant of Adam, the son of Adam

So he's human.  Where does he get off not inheriting Adam's sin

People's answer 'the virgin birth' well, where does she get off.
She was a descendant of Adam too.
-------------
That was where I turned it off. I hear Jesus cut down every day.
I could not listen to another one. 
----------------------

4:35 where is the verse that sin flows through the father?

(MH said there is none. There is one that suggests that. Below  )

4:42 it doesn't work to say Jesus was just sort of plopped into the
womb by God

4:50 (In Romans 1:3) Then Paul is wrong when he says Christ is descended from David according to the flesh

5:10  the genealogies are correct

According to Romans 5:12  Jesus inherited Adams guilt
(IF he'd said this first....
5:19  so they invented the doctrine that Mary was sinless. It doesn't say that but that gets Mary off the hook and Jesus off the hook.

6:32  The only exception to this is Jesus.

8:28 no one goes to heaven through their own merit.
--------------------
The verse about the sins of the fathers:
Deut.5  Moses is relaying God's Words
9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
---------------------
I suppose there is a writing or video where he explains WHEN/BY WHOM the virgin birth was inserted into scripture?  I can find it.

Dove wrote:

You're right.   I was wrong.  I didn't listen far enough.
Please accept my apology. 
My argument was not with you, but with Heiser's words.

The verse about the sins of the fathers:
Deut.5  Moses is relaying God's Words
9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

We all make mistakes on many different levels. I except your apology.

I also wrote the very same thing a few times as Michael Heiser said in the video on this topic. It wasn't just him. I felt it was up to me to say something of defense.

Michael addresses the scripture concerns above in the quote somewhere in his layout I posted the link to. 

What I would suggest not only to you but anyone that is truly interested on this subject, is to make the time to read and study all of the material. That doesn't mean all at one time unless that is what you want to do. When I first started reading the material it took me a few times, but I then went back and read it all together at the same time. It's a lot to digest at one sitting. It doesn't only need to be read but also studied deeply.

Both of the videos I posted from Michael Heiser are very short, they only hit a very short response. The layout is for the full course meal not only the appetizers.

I'm not only saying this to you Dove but to me and anyone else with this subject or any subject. If we begin to read, listen, or watch material and already have our minds made up before we begin, then our minds are hardened in cement. It's so easy for any of us to become only a hole puncher of the material.  

Here below is the link on this subject for anyone that has an interest.

https://drmsh.com/romans-512/