Will we love the darkness more than the Light?

dove, you know there are always underlying issues to cause someone to do things that are out of character.....we are working on it at this end, and his dad is working on it at home, and i think he will be just fine provided that al involved work with total honesty....his health is fine, he eats like a horse,lol....you can figure this one out....his mom had a lot of trouble having him, and than experienced post-partem-depression after he was born....his early months were nurtured by his dad and us.....there was a lack of bonding with his mom early on....they finally got her body chemistry and hormones straightened out, but it took a while....i thought that was all bullshit, until i saw her have a seizure, and it scared me to death....there is more to it, but you get the picture....hays has had good parenting, he just has a few scars to fix

This is one of the greatest verses in the Bible and it reveals the big picture for all. This very verse is why I say all people are given an opportunity. "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."(John 1:9)

What man chooses to do with the true Light is up to each person. I believe Christ has,is and will reveal himself [True Light] to everyone. "That at the name of Jesus [every knee] should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;And that [every tongue] should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:10-11)

Wonderful verses ScaRZ.  Whoever finds the Truth in them is set free indeed.

So, I've been writing and filing this morning, and am going to try again to meet the challenge on it's own level, and then we can show how everything we really want IS available through the Open Door.

There is an issue of a painful offense in Hays case, I believe. And it is very similar to my son's. Everyone has offenses, and most are legitimate.   But that doesn't move us past them. 
Yet if we don't find our way past them, they do damage.
I'm not interested in 'damage control'.  I'm into elimination, because that's freedom!
Right believing, right decisions, right choices bring right results.  

 
Who or what controls me?  Am I really exercising my freedom to choose what brings me happiness and satisfaction in life?  Does my life have meaning?  Do I HONOR my life? Share Goodness with others?

Or have I given away my well being and my power to someone or something else.
Some people are surprised that they have the right, the freedom to think what they think or not; to feel what they feel or not, to choose what opinions to accept or reject about themselves.  
People figure they just think what they think.  Thoughts come and that's it.  But that's not true.
WE are the keepers of our gates.  That is truth.

Did you know they've determined that about 97% of the thoughts we think today are the same thoughts we had yesterday and the day before?
That's a stunning fact.  Already I'm bored.  haha.   How does this even happen?   

Just like actions repeated, thoughts repeated over and over wear little synoptic pathways in our brain.
That's a critical function in order to function in life.  We don't have to relearn everything anew each day.   Like riding a bike, driving, teeing up.   How to type, balance a check book, on and on.
It's part of the basic 'fight or flight' instinct that keeps us alive.  Before we even consciously think it out, the brain has accessed a situation, relying on memory (is this a threat or a non threat), and is taking what it deems as appropriate action,  releasing chemical messengers to the heart, muscles, etc.  to react or stand down.

And there are places where it doesn't help, such as when we repeat a thing till it becomes a habit, and the habit becomes an addiction.  Any behavior repeated inordinately throws us out of balance.
There are workaholics, for instance.  Imbalance is a chaotic state. Stasis is a healthy state, a state of equilibrium.
A balanced state is a powerful state.  Our energies are consolidated, organized, poised for positive creativity.
And 'thought' is also 'action'.  (that would take a little more explaining)

In terms of addiction, the brain's pleasure centers are activated causing MORE motivation to repeat an activity.  Just the thought of a drink or a line or a boost triggers the release of serotonin and dopamine, the feel good chemicals in the brain, and sends a rush of endorphins through the body.

But, the dirty trick is that process starts to suffer wear and tear and it takes more and more of a substance to set off the 'feel good' cascade.  And having been exhausted from overstimulation, it starts to not work at all without the substance, leaving the person trying to get straight in a real depression...even desperation.
Trying to get straight or sober without medical support can kill too.

At the physical level we are electro-chemical beings encapsulated in skin (the old mechanical model has been abandoned).  The extent of the damage done is system wide.  
Now, the brain takes emotional challenges and pain as just as much of a threat as a physical pain. 
And all those chemical signals respond in the same manner to a charged thought or emotion as to a physical substance or circumstance.
That's easy to prove and record with an eeg and an ekg, and of course they have.
At a more subtle level we call it stress, and in distress, and needing to de-stress before it affects our health, which it surely does.

Ok.  I need a new start for the new direction. 


How simple to see how easily we can become trapped.

thanks guys!...hays spent the morning playing golf with the husband of a relaative who lost their son to drugs, a terrible loss....kid had already beaten drugs and a doctor mistakenly prescribed him hard painkillers after a surgery....oxycodone(sic) and methadone do not go together.....it stopped his heart from beating....he was just trying to not get addicted and should have never attempted to do it on his own.....this shit hits every family, and these rat bastards in washington won't even close the border to stop the flow of drugs coming in...evil pieces of shit!!....if the MGM does materialize, i'm going....the only way to rid your home of rats is to eliminate them....the next generation has no chance with these genetic aberations in control

This was in my mail this morning.  God speaking to Hays and us all:



Unfortunately, unbeknownst to many believers today, the enemy has launched malicious disinformation campaigns that have effectively enslaved them for years to low self-esteem, self-hatred, guilt, eating disorders, perversions, inordinate fears, and all kinds of crazy habits and addictions. I want to expose the enemy’s lies and to help you see with pristine clarity the enemy’s deceptive and manipulative tactics. These lies will collapse like a house of cards the second you see your true identity in Christ.

Your weapons for this warfare are found in the truth of God’s Word, and they are mighty and have the power to overthrow and destroy every stronghold that has been built up through disinformation and wrong believing. And the way we can destroy these strongholds in our mind is by “bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ” (2 Cor. 10:5).

When I was a young believer, I was taught that it was my responsibility to bring my every thought into obedience to Christ. I tried and struggled with that for years and ended up with more mental oppression, stress, and guilt than I had started with. One day God opened my eyes and said to me, “Son, keep your focus and your thoughts always on the obedience of Christ, and that will be a powerful weapon to pull down the devil’s strongholds in your mind.” When He said that to me, it felt like the lights were suddenly switched on in my head.

So what does it mean to capture every thought to the obedience of Christ? Simply this: to focus on Jesus’ obedience to the Father at the cross, through which we were all made forever righteous the moment we believed in Him. Can you see that our obedience today under the new covenant begins with choosing to believe that we are made righteous by Christ’s obedience at the cross? The apostle Paul describes our obedience as “obedience to the faith” (Rom. 16:26)—believing right about what Jesus has done to make us righteous. And when we believe right like this, we will find His grace motivating and empowering us to think and live right.

God’s Word tells us, “The just [righteous] shall live by faith” (Rom. 1:17). You can say it like this: the righteous shall live by right believing. When you have right believing, you release the power of God to live right. The next time you have negative thoughts, catch yourself and look toward the obedience of Christ. See the cross. See Jesus. See Him washing your mind with His precious blood.

When you believe the gospel, the true gospel that says you are righteous through Jesus’ obedience (see Rom. 5:19), you will have right living. The right results will follow. My friend, the more you believe right that you have been made righteous and blessed through Christ’s obedience, the more you will see the fruit of obedience in your life. Praise Jesus for His marvelous grace!

Excellent ScaRZ.  That's a great story, great lesson.

One of the most despicable things about 'better life through chemistry', is that although it does alter how we feel, what we think for a night, when it wears off the same problem is still there.  It hasn't solved anything, and in fact can quickly become it's own VERY large problem.
Not only did we not solve our issue, we've added to it, making it even harder to locate the underlying causes and come to the freedom we seek.

The fundamental mistake is in trying to handle the underlying problem with 'on the surface' fixes.
The Bible recognizes, and AA teaches that the problem lies deeper than our will and our actions can reach.
We can't fix the tree leaf by leaf.  We HAVE TO get to the root. 

Hays knows where the problem stems from and it's right where it is for so many people:  Those false beliefs that we pick up as children and now sit in our subconscious mind.  That's where the accuser lives, and accuses us night and day.
He condemns us, he is a liar and deceiver, and robs us of all Goodness God has to offer.

We may not hear it speaking to us, but it defines and sabotages us constantly.
No matter where we go, what we do, what we accomplish, it's still there effecting how we think, feel, and then act.
And we naturally assume they are true.  They come from the people we count on and rely on to protect and nurture us.  They are the most important people in our world, and we're taught to subjugate our will to them; to let them define reality to us, and to teach us about the world and ourselves. 

But what if they are damaged too.  And they are; every one of them, guaranteed.  There are no perfect people.  They have walked in their own programming, making decisions from all their imperfections, all life long.
Now take that person and put them under pressure.

Not everyone here is a recovering addict.   But all have come to the realization that there is so much more to living than what we find available in the world, and we set out to find it.

That there is a Creator; who is the Source of all Life, including our own life, and that He Loves us beyond what we can even imagine, AND will prove it to us.  

We've come to understand why the world is as it is.  Why there is such wrong doing and suffering.  And how by returning to Him as He has taught us in His Word, He will set us free to experience Peace, Joy, Love, Patience, Right believing, right understanding, right action=Righteousness, Kindness, Goodness, Gentleness, Self control.
And the Promise of a world to come that is the Paradise He always meant for us.

Two paths in life.  One leads to death.  The other leads to life and eternal life.  We are given the freedom to choose, and advised to choose wisely.  You have the tools where you are today to make an informed choice.  When we choose God, He will do for us all that we cannot.  It's the Ultimate WIN-WIN!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WVnAbdHZao

dove, i am sending this page and discussion to hays' daddy, so that he can try to grasp where we are coming from....drugs or alcohol?....doesn't matter which, the end result is the damn same if not treated....the heart has to be changed and accepting the fact that you need help is the first step....hays is doing great!!! he has read every word here about this.....hey dudes and duddettes, i'm still here but i just don't have time to write like i did....Lord willing, i'll be back soon, as much as the present circumstances allow....you guys are the bestest of the best!!!!

This is something Michael Heiser wrote about a few years ago and I was just reading over it again. Very,very interesting topic and I really love his lay out. 

**********************

Key question........"What exactly is it that God decided in predestination?"


Normal View


God predestinates who will be saved,and all events equates foreknowledge with predesination. Before the foundation of the world.

Progress of human history......."All events "including" evil acts were predestinated."

At the end of human history........"Every event happened the way God predestinated it to."



Ramifications of the Normal View


*Every event no matter how good and evil,small or great was predestinated.

*There is "No" actual human freedom.

-Despite philosophical attempts to make humans seem free (e.g.,"their wills agree with God's") this predestination means humans could not have chosen otherwise.

*The "Fall" had to be predestinated.

*God therefore predestines all evil.



-Attempts to soften this (evil is part of God's plan but he doesn't ordain it ) leave God either needing evil for his plan to work,or deliberately including it in his plan (couldn't God think of a better one?)

-I don't see how this allows humans to image God,since freedom "Must" be a communicable attribute to image God (our not being able to make real choices means we are not like God.)



My Proposal....= Michael Heiser


Before the foundation of the world......."God predestinates the ends of human history (how/ what he wants it to end/accomplish) God decides to make humans free."

Progress of human history,all events are not predestinated (some may be) but all the end points are predestinated. God influences the behavior of his human imagers,who have freedom,through other humans,his Spirit,and other non-human imagers (e.g.,angels).

The separation of foreknowledge and predestination calls for this idea.

The end of human history........"All ends pretestinated by God are accomplished."



Ramifications of My Proposal=Michael Heiser


*Evil is not predestinated,it arises out of human or non-human freedom.

-God saw this,and had plans to fix it so that his decreed end (a believing remnant and kingdom/council on earth) will not be thwarted.

-God does not need or want evil in any sense. But he knew that was the cost of his decision.

-The cost of God's decision:suffering the effects of evil-but this was deemed by God preferable to creating robots made of flesh who were not like him.

*There is actual human freedom.

*The fall was not predestinated,but was foreknown (I'm giving them freedom and I know they'll screw it up,but I'm doing it anyway-and I already know how I'll defeat it toward my desired ends").

*The salvation of individuals may or may not be predestinated.

-God is free to predestinate a remnant if he chooses.Romans 8 (and other passages).


-The questions are:


*In what sense?

*Are all believers at all times predestinated?

*Can someone who believes stop believing?


-If we go into Romans 8 thinking God has decreed there will be a remnant (out of the elect),and "That" is what is predestinated in that passage.....


*Then look at the passage anew:

*Romans 8:28........"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose."


-His purpose=The end;a remnant


*Romans 8:29........"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."

-Notice that in this verse it is the "End" that is predestinated (the conformity of to Christ's image).


Red color are Michael Heiser's views added to Romans 8:30.

*Romans 8:30........"And those whom he predestined [to be part of the end remnant] he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." [Their path will end in glorification]


*I am suggesting that "if you believe (and keep believing),God has predestinated that you will be saved and glorified." (You will be in the remnant that he predestinated to exist at the end of all things).

*I believe this honors both predestination and the necessity to believe (make that choice).
*Yes,God can influence some more than others.

*Yes,God has to awaken ("quicken";regenerate) people to enable them to believe.

*He can bypass people in that regard (He predestinated a remnant,not the salvation of everyone).

*Once you are enabled to believe,you must believe to have eternal life (no one will be found in heaven who did not believe).

*This enablement may or may not be the "calling" of Romans 8 - that passage does not use quickening language,so they may be synonymous,or only some of the enabled (quickened) may be called.

absolute predestination is a fact, and one that does not grasp that and believe it just does not believe the bible....God declared the end from the beginning and all things in between because he is sovereign and we are just a tiny part of his plan....romans 8:28:

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to hispurpose.
²⁹ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
³⁰ Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
³¹ What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
³² He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
³³ Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
³⁴ Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
³⁵ Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
³⁶ As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
³⁷ Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
³⁸ For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
³⁹ Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

My opinion towards choice does not negate what you 're saying Mike.
Absolutely there is a predetermined framework.

BUT is everything predetermined"


EDIT: the verses you quoted are spoken by Paul, a man saved and 'dead so that He, the Son, might live in him.
No unsaved soul makes that confession of faith or that surrender.

Are we predestined to be saved?  Couldn't the Bible have said that pretty simply and to the point?
It seems to me the Bible would have been written entirely differently if a person's  salvation was predetermined.

How does one circumvent the 'choice' presented throughout the Bible.

salvation would fall under the heading of election.....God is the author and finisher of our salvation....i only have a few minutes so this will be brief, but i'll be back...
salvation is compared to birth, as in "born again"....why?...when your parents conceived you in an act of love, how much did you have to do with it?.....right, nothing....you were developed in the womb as a natural act....how much did you do to develop?...right nothing....then the actual birth delivery happened and you came into the world...again, how much did you have to do with it?.....you didn't have anything to do with your spiritual birth either....you are saved by grace (unmerited favor) and that is not of yourself, you just follow the flow and it happens...one might think they "did" something or "accepted Jesus" but all they did was to follow the call of the Father....just as a child can't choose their natural father, one can't "choose" their Spritual Father either....you may think that you did, but God is solely responsible for it

Dove........Michael Heiser is one of my very favorites.

He is just laying out ideas that many take to heart. You need to really read "His Proposals".......That is where you can see his thinking on the subject. Then quote those rather than all the other he doesn't see as the answers.

i agree with Mr. Heiser's thoughts. The predestination is for an elect group of people, even Michael alluded to it in his post.

michael371 wrote:

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Notice the word "firstborn", as in the 144,000/church of Philadelphia (although there were others). They do still have a choice however, as the following implies.

Quote :

Revelation 3
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Dove wrote:

And IF he said man has no choice as towards Salvation,  then I have a huge problem.

I have never heard or read anything where he came out and said that. 

I believe God can move certain people to reach the final end result. This is no different than God using many in The Old Testament that were even enemies of the Hebrews to reach whatever his goals were. If we read Revelation we see the very same thing in several cases. 

No matter how long it may take in our human time frame one day it will reach the end God has laid out in scripture to be fulfilled to the letter. This is all about "His Will",not my will or anyone elses will.

Just think, even The Lord Jesus Christ doesn't know the exact hour......."Only The Father."

ScaRZ said, "I believe God can move certain people to reach the final end result. "

Oh yes.  LOL.  I've felt VERY moved. heehee.


But I never felt God was doing something to me.  At one time I might have felt it followed the Job pattern, where God removed His hedge of protection.


But have since come to think of it as I was not NEAR ENOUGH to God to be under His Wing~His umbrella of protection.  
In that type of case, we are too much in the world, too much in the devil's arena, and CAN be attacked.

EDIT:  That new info has changed things, so I deleted my post as it no longer applies.

Hurts cause holes.  But we want and need to be whole, and Holy, not holey.  

Sending prayers.  Thanks for the heads up, Mike.

dove, i am going to copy an email that i sent my cousin that explains some things....hays is not the one that has the problem....check your pm in a few minutes and its not like its some big secret thing, i just don't want to do any typing much today and i think there might be an exposed email addy....garden tiller kicked my old ass this morning with this hard ground, and i ain't moving

These are some verses of The Bible that are interesting and bring forth many questions.


1 Cor. 15:20-23


But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.


For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.


For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.






Matthew 27:50-53


Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.


And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;


And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,


And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.




The thing we know is that Christ was the firstfruits. Christ was the "First" to be resurrected,but on the day of his resurrection some of the saints rose out of their sleep. It doesn't give a number as how many rose,but we know it wasn't all of them because of the wording. We also don't know how long these saints were in their graves. The saints that rose after Christ resurrection appeared to many because they went into the holy city. Another thing is we are only told they appeared unto many but it never says that these people knew who these saints were,as many speculate that they were known.

Not any of the other three Books of Mark,Luke or John is this event mentioned.

All we have to go on is these Saints graves were opened by the great earthquake when Christ died on the cross,but they never rose until after Christ resurrection.

Did these rise to live in a flesh and blood body again as did some of the people that Jesus Christ brought back to life again?

Or did they rise in their resurrection bodies as Jesus Christ did?

These Saints that rose and went into the Holy City are not mentioned again.

If they did rise in their resurrection bodies, How long did they remain on earth before they were taken up?..........."And also Did they ascend up before,during or after Jesus Christ was taken up?"

One thing for sure,no names were given of who these Saints were. 

I've often wondered if these Saints that rose when Christ was resurrected are the 24 Elders spoken of in Revelation. If these are the 24 Elders spoken of in the Book Of Revelation,God The Father appears to want to keep their names a mystery for now.

After going down a few avenues, the fact is I have no idea.
Lazarus four days dead, and seemed to have an earth body.
Jesus, three days 'dead', but Mary didn't recognize Him till she heard Him speak.
When He said, 'Touch me not',.....why not? What was it about having not yet
ascended.

The only thing I do get out of it is confirmation that till Jesus ascended, no man had ascended.  (Does that clarify who~what Enoch was?)

 In the story of Lazarus the beggar and the rich man, the rich man was
already in torment, while Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom.
I'm guessing the 'saints' were those in "Abraham's bosom', waiting.

Luke 16:24 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

And, my mind's fuzzying up.  So early in the day, too. Oh dear.   haha. 
------
And a couple of verses in that section of Luke that support what we've discussed here:


Luke: 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.


Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. 

I goofed:  I said, The only thing I do get out of it is confirmation that till Jesus ascended, no man had ascended.  (Does that clarify who~what Enoch was?)


Forgot about Elijah for a minute.  So looks like I should amend my thinking on the actual meaning of the 'first resurrection'.


WAIT!  Haha.  The benefits of thinking out loud, and the detriment of speaking before thinking.  lol.


Enoch and Elijah were raptured, not resurrected.  Got it!

Dove wrote:

Enoch and Elijah were raptured, not resurrected.  Got it!

We could possibly call that "raptured" but i prefer to think of them as having been "transported", as in time travel or extradimensional travel. See Ezekiel 3:12+

jem2 wrote:

Dove wrote:

Enoch and Elijah were raptured, not resurrected.  Got it!

We could possibly call that "raptured" but i prefer to think of them as having been "transported", as in time travel or extradimensional travel. See Ezekiel 3:12+

i think you got it right,jem....if you turn a "whirlwind" on its side, it would look like a "portal" and enoch was "translated" or changed location....we use the word to indicate a change from one language to another

Enoch and Elijah both were "Way" before Jesus Christ was on this earth. By Jesus Christ own words we know neither Enoch or Elijah could have ascended up to Heaven.  

So the question is......"Where did they go?

Translated can be defined as moving from one location to another. It doesn't mean they had to be in what we call Heaven where God The Father was and is located. Maybe there are different sections of heaven,or as we would say "heavens". 


KJV

John 3:13........"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."



ESV

No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

ScaRZ wrote:

So the question is......"Where did they go?

If you read Ezekiel 3:12 to the end of the chapter then turn to Ezekiel 33 you will see that it appears he shows up in the future, maybe present day, to have a talk with the house of Israel. Also, Ezekiel 3 ties in to Daniel 12:5 and Revelation 10.

There are several books of Enoch, one of which details what he learned when an angel took him on a tour of the heavens. We were told that Enoch will show up at a future time, probably at Revelation 11, so maybe the tour was part of his trip into the future.

Just speculating of course.

I don't know the answer, but thanks to you guys I watched hours of "Paranormal Caught on video" yesterday.  No answers though.  

We know from Hebrews 11:5 that Enoch was translated......."Taken or moved from one location to another,but The Bible never says he entered Heaven where God The Father's Throne is located."

KJV

Hebrews 11:5........"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."

ESV

By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God.



We also know that Enoch walked with God........."Had faith in God and pleased God." Enoch only walked with God after Methuselah came in the picture. All the days of Enoch were 365 years and only the last 300 did he walk with God.


Genesis 5:21-24

And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:


And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:


And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:


And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.




Philip in Acts 8:38-40 was also caught away /taken/moved.


And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.


And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.


But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.


Philip was "Caught Away" (Harpazo) as soon as they rose from the water. There are no details given about the "Caught Away"(Harpazo) of Philip. All we are given is that he was taken from that location and was later found at Azotus. We have no idea how long it was before he was found. We don't know how long he was taken then returned.


In Hebrews 8 a lay out of names that had faith but as yet had not received the promises. I won't post all of Hebrews 8 so please read it yourself and you will see what I'm talking about. The names mentioned are Abel,Enoch,Noah,Abraham and Sara. Notice that Enoch is one that is listed and Hebrews 8:13 tells us "These all died in faith".


Hebrew 8:13........"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."



It certainly looks like Enoch did die sometime after he was translated/taken up. If he did die then what is meant by what is said in Hebrews 8:5........"He should not see death"?

Was this referring to the the fact that Enoch would not see the second death?

Jesus Christ spoke of a death that could be escaped but it wasn't the first death.


John 8:51........"Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death."


John 11:25-26


Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:


And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


As scripture says it is appointed unto humans that they will die once......."The first death."


Hebrews 9:27........"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"

Here are only a few of many verses in The Bible that I believe point to the Millennium. I believe there will be people who are as we are today......"Natural...mortal". People will live grow, mature, marry, procreate, age, and die. If a person today reaches the age of 100 they have lived a very,very long life. In the Millennium they will be only as a babe.

KJV

Isaiah 65:20......."There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."

ESV

"No more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the young man shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed."



The nations will be ruled with a rod of iron (iron scepter).


Revelation 2:26-27


And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:


And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.




Revelation 12:5


And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.


Revelation 19:15


And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.



Another good example of there being natural or mortal people on this earth at that time is that there will be rendering of decisions or disputes settled. While there will be differences between nations, differences will no longer be settled by military conflicts.


KJV

Isaiah 2:4


And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

ESV

He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.



There will be the very young sucking the breast of their mothers,and children at full peace with animals and creatures once to be feared. The knowledge of The LORD will be throughout the entire world, affecting man, animals and all creatures alike.


Isaiah 11:6-9


The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.


And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.


And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.


They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.




I will do my best to first give my thoughts on the rule with a rod of iron. This is all very deep and will open up many doors if we let it.

The Rod of Iron is used to show power. Jesus Christ will have power over the nations of this whole earth. We also know from scripture that there will be overcomers of this world who will be kings and priest to help rule with a rod of iron.


1 John 5:5


Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?





Psalm 2:8-9


Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.





1 Peter 4:13


Instead, be very glad because these trials will make you partners with Christ in his suffering, and afterward you will have the wonderful joy of sharing his glory when it is displayed to all the world.





Revelation 2:26-27

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:


And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.



rule.......poimaino..From G4166; to tend as a shepherd...feed.


So now we can see how the elect will be ruling over the non-elect. The word rule has meanings of....to shepherd, to feed, to supply what we need. They will be kings and priests that will help bring the non-elect into the Kingdom.

Not everyone is going to be ruling in The Kingdom.

if you look at the mention of "iron" through scripture, it does seem to indicate an element of "supernaturalism"....my guess is that He will rule the world supernaturally with the rule of Law

If we read what is written in Revelation 20 we can see that the saints will be here on earth during "The Little Season" of Satan. As it reads they (The Saints) will be surrounded by the deceived nations that number as the sand of the sea.


.......that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season........(Revelation 20:3)


Revelation 20:7-9


And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.





compassed.......To surround; encircle



One thing to notice is that those who are blessed to take part in the first resurrection are to be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Revelation 20:6......."Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."


I bet you can guess where I'm going with this. If they are only to reign for 1,000 years only,then what about "The Little Season" of Satan that comes after 1,000 years are fulfilled?

We can read that there are saints here on earth during the "Little Season" but that's to be expected after the rule of Jesus Christ and teaching of the priest for 1,000 years.

Can you imagine a 1,000 year period of time when all of Satan's forces of influence are restrained?........."No Satan,No Fallen Messengers,(No Demons/evil spirits/unclean spirits/devils) and No Fallen Sons of God (Watchers) ruling the nations of the earth?

This will be a time of teaching all the nations of the earth no false gospels,but "The Truth".

The nations will no longer be influenced and ruled over by The Fallen Sons of God,but will be taught by the priest and ruled by The King of Kings and Lord of Lords Jesus Christ.

Those resurrected who are priest are to reign with Christ for only the 1,000 year period of time on this earth. Scripture seems to go silent on the priest still reigning during the "Little Season" of Satan. The Book of Revelation only reads as for 1,000 years.

My main question ........"Does Jesus Christ stand down during this "Little Season" of Satan?"

What I see is for 1,000 years Satan will be restrained from any direct influence. He has been taken out of the picture.

All of Satan's forces (Demons,Fallen Messengers,Fallen Sons of God) have either been destroyed completely/ or a part have been destroyed and a group of them have been restrained with Satan/or they all remain and have been restrained with Satan.

With all direct influence of Satan and his forces taken out of the picture then the population of the earth will be ruled by One Lord of Lords and King of Kings (Jesus Christ). Up until Jesus Christ took back the Kingdoms of this earth they were under direct influence and were ruled by (Fallen Sons of God,Princes).

I believe you will have people that have lived through the great tribulation and will remain in their earthly bodies. They will begin to have children and populate the earth. You will also have those who have been blessed to take part in the first resurrection.

I think it's now time to go back to Revelation.


Revelation 2:26-27


And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:


And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


Why must "They" be broken to pieces?

I most certainly will never claim to have it all figured out. But this is right now how I view it.

Jesus Christ came to do The Will of The Father. We must understand this part or everything falls apart.

Jesus Christ was broken on the cross. Jesus Christ was completely at "One" with The Father's will.

The elect are those who inherit the reign of The Kingdom.

Only those who overcome......."Those who do the will of the Father will inherit the reign of The Kingdom. For this to happen,"Self-Will" must be broken so that they can be subjected to The Father.


2 Timothy 2:12......."If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:"


If we suffer or endure hardship, we will reign with him. The hardship is the process of being broken to truly follow The Will of Jesus Christ / The Will of The Father......."Oneness". Remember we are to pick up our cross and follow him. He was broken,we also must be broken.

What about all the others (non-elect) who are living during the 1,000 years....."The many nations and people on earth"?

They must also have their Self-Wills broken if they are to be added into The Kingdom. This is the purpose of the overcomers (the kings and priest) who will reign with Jesus Christ. The non-elect must have their "Self-Wills" broken in order for them to be brought into line with Jesus Christ and The Father.

One very simple way to look at it......."No one is truly "Saved" without having their "Self-Wills" changed into The Will of The Father."

It has always been about The Will of The Father.

ScaRZ said:  "One very simple way to look at it......."No one is truly "Saved" without having their "Self-Wills" changed into The Will of The Father."


THIS is what I've written about here for 11 years now.  LOL.
You've bumped into an aspect of Salvation that is in debate in the 'church'.  Stewart Best wrote a book called "The Poor Lost Christian" where he argues one is not truly Saved without an encounter and submission.


I understand where he's coming from, having had my own 'encounter', as He did.  It's so beyond everything...But

The big argument against Best's ideas are:


 Acts 2:21 21And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved.'
Romans 10:13 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved."


More details:
Peter speaking in Acts 2:
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 and on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 and I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 and it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.



AND Paul in Romans:
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) 7 or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Yes! I agree with you Dove that as long as you believe......."Truly believe in the True Jesus Christ then you will be saved." I do not believe a person will be saved if they follow and believe in a False Jesus or they no longer believe at all. 

I believe a person who truly believes will be broken of their self will. I believe it is a must to give up self.

Jesus came to do the will of The Father and he did just that. Jesus never was about self will.

When a person is full of self will they never enter into true "Oneness" with anyone or for that matter a body of people. This of coarse speaks of The Body of Christ........"The Church." Many,many pieces make up a whole........"One Body". This is a true picture of complete "Oneness".

In general terms I'd say that our job is to serve, as He is our example.


Giving isn't all that simple when we give from what we have.  UNLESS we know we are connected to the Source (the Kingdom) and the Provider (God)= (all is One).  And we are giving in the Awareness of His Limitless Abundance.  Then giving, whether of our time or resources is Joyful. 
EDIT:  And do our good works in His Name.  We mustn't take credit.
Others need to know God is caring for them.


Yet even then we wait on the Spirit for prompting, or our efforts are in vain.


I've been trying to post a little ditty somewhere today,   regarding surrender.  You may have heard it.


"If God is your co-pilot, you're in the wrong seat".   Sums it up nicely, I think.   

One of the greatest examples of "Self Will"...........The five I wills.

Isa 14:13-14


For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:


I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

scarz, that is one of the most intriguing passages of scripture that exists.....would you hang on to this for a discussion later?...i'm in the middle of a garden and i am just really busy and then i am really tired after coming inside.....just hang to this.....i'll forget by lunchtime anyway

michael371 wrote:

scarz, that is one of the most intriguing passages of scripture that exists.....would you hang on to this for a discussion later?...i'm in the middle of a garden and i am just really busy and then i am really tired after coming inside.....just hang to this.....i'll forget by lunchtime anyway

Sure thing Michael,just drop in when you have time. I look forward to reading what you have to lay out.

The Abyss or Bottomless Pit referred to in the Bible and other ancient writings is defined in the Oxford dictionary...Abyss...a hole so deep it appears bottomless. 

In the King James version of the Bible in Revelation 9:1 the words...the bottomless pit was rendered from the Greek word [Abussos]. 

In Strong's concordance abussos is explained as,bottomless,unbound,the abyss,the pit,the immeasurable,the deep. 

Greek: tartaroo (GSN-5020), from tartaros (Latin, tartarus), a dark abyss; a place of punishment. 

abyss 

1. A bottomless pit. 

2. Anything too deep or too great to be measured; lowest depth. 

3. An immeasurably deep chasm, depth, or void. 

4. The primeval chaos out of which it was believed that the earth and sky were formed. 

5. The abode of evil spirits; hell, thought of as a bottomless pit. 


The Jewish New Testament Commentary ....The word is used in the Septuagint to translate Hebrew tehom, as in Genesis 1:2, 'Darkness was over the abyss.' At a later period in Judaism 'tehom' referred to the place where renegade spirits were confined" (p. 119). 

The Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary .....In classical Greek ábyssos was an adjective meaning 'bottomless,' applied to the primeval deep of ancient cosmogonies, an ocean surrounding and under the earth. In the LXX it translates Heb. tehôm meaning the primal waters of Genesis 1:2, once the world of the dead (Ps. 71:20).

In later Judaism it means also the interior depths of the earth, and the prison of evil spirits. . . . In Luke 8:31 the demons fear the primal prison deep more than the known depth of the Lake of Galilee. In Revelation the horror of infinite deeps is intensified.[Abyss p.8] 


In the Apocrypha.... God is called........"You who close and seal the Abyss with your fearful and glorious name."


In Revelation 9:11 we see when an Angel unlocks the bottomless pit[Abussou] that a ruler or King will rise up from the Abyss[bottomless pit]. The King of the bottomless pit will be Abaddon[Hebrew] or Apollyon[Greek]. The word or name Abaddon in Hebrew means [Destroyer]. 


Rev 9:11 

And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon.

There are some ancient writings, Chinese i think, that speak of a great hole in the Pacific ocean. It was not safe to sail one's ship out there any longer. i'm thinking ring of fire and wonder what may have happened back then. Although i may be wrong about this, a few writings seem to suggest that the moon emerged from the earth when it split open, and the world was not the same after that time.

will post link without comment....this is so sad

https://abc13.com/5356269/?ex_cid=TA_KTRK_TW

very interesting sermon/lecture by one of my favorites stephen a chronister:

This is a dream I had that has stuck with me. Most dreams fade very quickly but some are what I call deep dreams. I believe some dreams hold special meanings and this is one of them.

***********************


I was part of a large crowd gathered outside on the lawn and parking area of a huge dark stone structured church.




Everyone including myself appeared to be standing around waiting for something. I kept looking at the church building and noticed how all the dark stones were cut out into many different shapes and sizes. This was one huge church that reached high into the sky.




I heard the sound of a mighty wind then turned away from the church and looked to my right and saw a black cloud rushing very low in the sky towards the church.




Everyone was terrified as the darkness came rushing at the church and hit it right in the very center. This dark cloud had such a strong power behind it that the church was blown into thousands of dark stones and carried them high into the heavens.




As all of us stood gazing into the sky, the thousands of dark stones could be seen falling back down on the church lawn and parking area. The people as well as the automobiles were being smashed into the earth. Screams could be heard as everyone was running with nowhere to go.




I would dodge the stones as they fell to earth by just looking upward into the sky and moving in the correct direction. Not one other person was doing this and all of them were being killed as they all only ran straight into the paths of the dark stones.




I finally grabbed the hand of one lady and pulled her towards me and into a ditch as the last dark stone fell on the very spot she had been. At that moment I woke from the dream.

Certainly symbolic through and through.

I agree with Dove. This dream is full of symbolism. I got chill bumps reading it.