Will we love the darkness more than the Light?

i wonder how many people recognize that the time of lot that Christ talked about is here?...."they" walk among us

https://activistmommy.com/library-quietly-removes-photos-of-children-lying-on-a-drag-queen-at-story-time-after-massive-backlash/

Not that many people  do see, Mike..  This is absolutely sickening- and so we ask how could they not see this  for what it is..It's because "they" are indeed among us and changing the way people think  by having slowly integrated themselves into the masses.  
  We  are becoming a minority.I was thinking of this just yesterday as I do most days lately- that is- about how quickly society has declined..  "They" have stepped up their activity because they have a battle plan and need to act quickly or will lose- but we know the ending already don't we. I think their goal is to take as many with them as they can. But I ask  the Lord to keep us strong , wise and not let us be deceived by evil parading as good. in Jesus name I ask this , Amen.

i tired to tell folks for nearly two decades that the degenerates would rule just like they did in Lots day....they walk among us...."nothing new under the sun"

http://www.prophecynewswatch.com/article.cfm?recent_news_id=3353

Judy, how many times did you hear things like the things that you have heard in the the last 5-6 years, in the little church that you attended?....when the light came on for you, you was shocked at the darkness that you had been living in, were you not?....i don't mean "evil" darkness, i mean ignorant darkness....ignorant people trying to run around "saving" reprobates is one reason the church has declined into a mishmash of confusion and manmade doctrines.....i just saw where the southern baptists have a movement to be more "tolerant" of the LBGXYZSHIT reprobates....billy graham started the liberal slide back in the 60's when he started the subtle easing into universalism....when i was a kid, the SBC was as conservative as i am now and with the advent of graham and his sly liberalism, they are now no more than mini-catholics....graham sure did spend a lot of time with the pope.....and graham sure did get a lot of affection from the "world system"...i do believe Christ told us that if we love Him, the world would hate us...don't look like the world hated graham to me, with that big sendoff he got, all the time he spent with the "world " leaders.....oh, by the way, graham was a 33rd degree mason, in case you didn't know

https://thenarrowgateweb.com/2018/02/24/americas-pastor-billy-graham-exposed/

http://www.angelfire.com/la2/prophet1/grahammason.html

when i get time, i would like to recount a story about graham that is a 100% fact!!....billy graham preached here when he was a young preacher, before i was born, and the story was told to me by relatives who attended his services....he sold out to the world, like it or not....i have never had any use for graham

how the hell did i get off on him?...oh yeah, "darkness"

I am not here to defend Billy Graham.  I'm here to defend God.

Graham is a man, no doubt flawed, as is every man.  But I watched the crusades as a child, and I saw the people make a public confession of Jesus, with Love, and need and desire in their hearts.

They heard the message of the Gospel and came forward.  What they did afterwards was between them and God.  How many entered the Kingdom because at least in that one thing Graham was obedient, as long as he did not misrepresent the Gospel to them.

I also believe in the Forgiveness of sins.  Let God condemn him if He chooses.  I won't.
I am grateful for the many saved souls.

so, the end justifies the means, i guess?....straight out of catholicism....graham was a fraud.....joel osteen and rick warren are okay, too, with that kind of thinking...."ye must worship in spirit and in truth"

michael371 wrote:

so, the end justifies the means, i guess?....straight out of catholicism....graham was a fraud.....joel osteen and rick warren are okay, too, with that kind of thinking...."ye must worship in spirit and in truth"

Just because you don't understand what I say does not mean you can rewrite what I say.  And I said nothing of Osteen, etc.  And Catholicism???  Are you kidding?

It seems to me you are much more comfortable condemning than I am.  I recall God saying He looks on the heart.
As long as we are in this world, the flesh is subject to sin.  The soul is Redeemed.
I think your argument is with God, not me.  UNLESS he misrepresented Salvation through Jesus Christ Alone.  And I don't think he did.

Even Paul struggled with his behavior.  Should we reject his words?  Was he a "fraud"?

I'm aware things are said about Graham.  I didn't look into it.  Why would I if I believe God is His Judge.  I judge MY behavior.

I do not consider Osteen or far too many others "Ministers of the Gospel". 
I think there was a Righteous Pope once in history, and I believe they killed him within a month.

I don't know what charges you would bring against Billy Graham, or what PROOFS, or if I would agree he was of the devil and was a deceiver of those who sought to know Christ.
But I know too how the devil operates, and that he is an accuser.
And that ministers are very big targets to the devil.  
For instance, it is just like the devil to make one doubt their own salvation by doubting the one who led them to Christ.  

Did God sent Graham into 'Babylon'? I don't know.  But he wouldn't be the first or the last.  And I'm not prepared to throw stones.

And then there's this:

Matt. 11:18 18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. 19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. 


Matthew 9:11
When the Pharisees saw this, they asked His disciples, "Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?"



Luke 5:29
Then Levi hosted a great banquet for Jesus at his house. A large crowd of tax collectors was there, along with others who were eating with them.



Luke 7:34
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Look at this glutton and drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and of sinners!'



Luke 15:2
So the Pharisees and scribes began to grumble: "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them."



Luke 5:31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. 32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. 

Once we take that stand as a believer in Christ "The World" views us though different eyes. We are the enemy of "The World" and the god of this world. The Adversary will do anything in his power to keep us from speaking of the truth. He will use all his deceptive forces to attempt to silence us and get us doubting who and what we stand for. He accuses us daily deep within our selves and right before the Father.

If we are looking for the good old days......."There really were no good old days." 

One thing we do know is that as time goes forward we "Believers" are not going to like what we see and hear any more than what we see and hear today. People that love the world and the things of the world will be blind to the light because they are blind. When someone is truly blind they can not see what is so clear to someone who can truly see. 

We will never be able to clean"The World" up. We could preach for one thousand years and "The World" will remain just what it is "The World". When the time comes it will be cleaned up by God but not a second before all that is to be will be "Fulfilled".

We can not vote out sin. Things will continue to move forward........"There is no need looking behind." 

I know I've said this many times before but I won't stop saying it. The church has blended into "The World" and "The World" has blended into the church.

Here is a question that was ask that got me thinking hard upon the last two days.

Can those who have never heard the name of Jesus Christ be saved?


I will give my thoughts on the subject when I have some free time. 

If anyone cares to lay out their thoughts and beliefs the door is open to all........"Feel free and don't wait on me."

ScaRZ wrote:

Here is a question that was ask that got me thinking hard upon the last two days.

Can those who have never heard the name of Jesus Christ be saved?


I will give my thoughts on the subject when I have some free time. 

If anyone cares to lay out their thoughts and beliefs the door is open to all........"Feel free and don't wait on me."

Jesus is also The Light as well as The Word. Before there ever was the name Jesus spoken by anyone he was there. Even in the darkest regions without anyone hearing the name Jesus, The Light as well as The Word was in mouths and in hearts. John 1 is one great read and I don't believe a lot of people really see it for what is right in front of them.

John 1:5........"  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."

We can go back for hundreds and thousands of years and as dark as things may have seemed "The Darkness" never extinguished "The Light". (The Light,The Word=Jesus) was always there. 


John 1:9........" That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."

Jesus was The True Light and his Light has never not shined upon any human. Now what a human does with that Light is up to each and every person. Humans have, can and will reject The Light. Not every human will keep (The Light,The Word=Jesus) in their hearts and spoken from their mouths.


Deuteronomy 30:14........"But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it."

It is in each person to know right and wrong. I believe however that humans can keep pushing away right and wrong can and will consume them. I truly believe The Darkness will overtake them and the heart will become an evil heart. The spoken word from their mouths will be poison.

I believe (The Light,The Word,The Way,The Truth,The Life=Jesus) does,has and will continue to be an inner voice that can reach humans who have never heard the name Jesus Christ.

So to answer the question........."Yes I believe they can,have and will be saved if (The Light,The Word=Jesus) lives in their hearts and their mouths."

we now approach the era of watcher technology appearing again, just as it was in the pre-flood period.....how can anyone think this is a good thing?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/human-animal-hybrid-japan-stem-cell-research-tokyo-genes-a9027131.html

michael371 wrote:

we now approach the era of watcher technology appearing again, just as it was in the pre-flood period.....how can anyone think this is a good thing?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/human-animal-hybrid-japan-stem-cell-research-tokyo-genes-a9027131.html

We've been warned about this for years. One example below from 2012. Look for this subject to become mainstream now that the ban on experimenting with human/animal hybrids is being lifted.

As in the days of Noah stuff people.

CONSPIRACY THEORY WITH JESSE VENTURA
MANIMAL
Originally aired December 10, 2012
SEASON 3

where have we seen this before?....hint: 1st book of the bible/chapter 6

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/aug/01/jeffrey-epstein-seed-human-race-report

ScaRZ wrote:

ScaRZ wrote:

Here is a question that was ask that got me thinking hard upon the last two days.

Can those who have never heard the name of Jesus Christ be saved?


I will give my thoughts on the subject when I have some free time. 

If anyone cares to lay out their thoughts and beliefs the door is open to all........"Feel free and don't wait on me."

Jesus is also The Light as well as The Word. Before there ever was the name Jesus spoken by anyone he was there. Even in the darkest regions without anyone hearing the name Jesus, The Light as well as The Word was in mouths and in hearts. John 1 is one great read and I don't believe a lot of people really see it for what is right in front of them.

John 1:5........"  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."

We can go back for hundreds and thousands of years and as dark as things may have seemed "The Darkness" never extinguished "The Light". (The Light,The Word=Jesus) was always there. 


John 1:9........" That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."

Jesus was The True Light and his Light has never not shined upon any human. Now what a human does with that Light is up to each and every person. Humans have, can and will reject The Light. Not every human will keep (The Light,The Word=Jesus) in their hearts and spoken from their mouths.


Deuteronomy 30:14........"But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it."

It is in each person to know right and wrong. I believe however that humans can keep pushing away right and wrong can and will consume them. I truly believe The Darkness will overtake them and the heart will become an evil heart. The spoken word from their mouths will be poison.

I believe (The Light,The Word,The Way,The Truth,The Life=Jesus) does,has and will continue to be an inner voice that can reach humans who have never heard the name Jesus Christ.

So to answer the question........."Yes I believe they can,have and will be saved if (The Light,The Word=Jesus) lives in their hearts and their mouths."

Here are some good verses that fit well into this topic. It has appeared to all men but again it depends on if it is believed and lived or if it is rejected. The Light can shine upon us but we can choose darkness over light. Lip service is cheap....."But do we live it?" 

Great example is believing in God and "Believing God"...........Two entirely different things. Even The Adversary believes in God.

Titus 2:11-12........"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,


Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Dove said........Another place where we may differ in understanding is that it sounds as if you're saying men are born sinless and then choose. 

*********************

Nowhere have I ever said anything like that. You have totally misunderstood my whole post.

Scripture is very plain that we are all born in sin. 

I believe however that The Light has shined on all at some point in their lives. I certainly believe scripture is very plain in what I'm saying. John 1:9 does not say some men but it says "Every Man". We all know that John 1 is about The Word and we all certainly know who The Word is. We also know that The Word is The True Light that is also referring to Jesus Christ. I didn't post every verse of scripture because everyone here can look it up. Most people won't read long post and is the main reason I try and keep them small to medium size in length.


John 1:9........"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."


Most people want to make more out of the question than what it is. Do we really think God can't reach those who have never heard the name Jesus spoken by human lips or read it in The Bible? 


We as humans can not or should not attempt to place God in our boxes. Humans have many boxes we try to force God into. Religion is by far one of the largest boxes.

Isaiah 55:8-11


For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.



For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.



For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:



So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

I have already covered why I stand firm where I do. The Word,The Light is Jesus The Christ. 

Just a very small example within The Bible. Did Noah or Enoch written about within the pages of The Bible ever hear the name Jesus to be saved?......."And these are only two of many,many that can be named just within the pages of The Bible." 

What about all the people that lived and died before The Flood as well as after The Flood that aren't written about within the pages of The Bible and never heard the name Jesus spoken?

I will just look at my neck of the woods......"North America". Are all The American Indians that never heard the name Jesus lost? If The True Light as The Bible is very plain....... "lighteth every man that cometh into the world" then The True Light came upon the American Indians also.

Now does that mean they all answered the call of The Light=The Word that spoke to their hearts?....."No it doesn't." But I believe most certainly that some of the American Indians as well as some of all peoples of this earth who have never heard the name Jesus have,can and will be saved.

Which is most important?......."The Law written on paper or The Law written within the hearts,spoken outward from their mouths and then Lived?"

As much as I don't want to argue, this is too important to walk away from.   There are  others who have no doubt asked the same question.
I certainly have sought that answer.  We all know good, Godly acting people who do not know of Jesus, or think God is bigger than Jesus, so WHY MUST IT BE through Jesus and Him Alone.

Please follow me here. You said, "So to answer the question........."Yes I believe they can,have and will be saved if (The Light,The Word=Jesus) lives in their hearts and their mouths."


What you've described is the condition of one "ALREADY SAVED'.
Yet you said, these are also those who have never heard the name of Jesus Christ .   


I'm saying that's impossible, according to the Bible.
What is the overriding purpose of the Written Word?  It is to bring reconciliation between God and man through the forgiveness of sins which was and is THE Cause of all separation.


And that's the flaw in your conclusion.  You've made no propitiation for the sins of man.  
And without that propitiation for the FORGIVENESS of sin, there can be NO Communion with God-no receiving His Holy Spirit, which is the EVIDENCE of His Presence.
Confessing Jesus comes before the baptism of the Spirit. The cleansing by the receiving of the sacrifice must come first. Then, can the Father and the Son live in us and with us.  Otherwise, we have no part in Him. 
If it was not so, there would have been no need for the Cross.


Romans 5:5 5And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.



Jesus said, No man comes to the Father but by Me.  "NO other way". Period. And He explained that with different words over and over.
Acts 4:12  Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


So then, are they going to hell?  They aren't wicked.  But they are still in their sinful state without the Blood, and therefore CANNOT enter in to the Kingdom, into the Presence of God.


Isaiah 64:6,Romans 3:19-23,Romans 6:23,Romans 10:2-4,Ephesians 2:8-9   ALL our Righteousness is as filthy rags.



Is there hope for them?
Next post, before I lose this one...

Charles Lawson teaching on the word "lucifer"....this is part 1 and i'll put up part 2 as soon as he finishes

John 17:3 ESV 
And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, AND Jesus Christ whom you have sent.


So, what is the Hope for those who have not heard the Name of Jesus?  
First, there is what we call The Great Commission:
 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:15
(I believe that means those who hear but reject the Message are
damned, as opposed to those who never hear)




Romans 10:14-15 14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"





Revelation 14:6 6Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth-to every nation, tribe, language and people.





And then, As God so Loved the world that He sent His Only Begotten Son....
AND~
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the DOOR into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
AND~
 “I am the DOOR: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.” 
AND: 
“Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
AND:
So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. {10} “For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 
AND:
29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul. 30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the Lord thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; 31 (for the Lord thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them...
This is from Deuteronomy, so no reference in the text of Jesus.


So if God so loved the world, would God not 'make a way' for this seeking person to find Jesus? Would Jesus, by the Spirit not make Himself known?  

I also believe the testimonies that show just that.  (I'll put up later).


John 6:39-40 

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”


As far as the Old Testament, 
[url=https://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/John 3.13]John 3:13[/url], "And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man"


The OT prophets and saints were in a place called "Abraham's bosom".
I think they were well aware of and waiting for the Lamb of God, too.


[url=https://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Eph 4.8]Ephesians 4:8[/url] is often referred to as a supporting scripture for this belief. It says, "When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men." Furthermore, when Paul said he was caught up to the third heaven ([url=https://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/2 Cor. 12.2]2 Cor. 12:2[/url]), he was referring to the very dwelling place of God.



https://carm.org/did-anyone-ascend-heaven-jesus-or-not-john-3-13

Dove.....You just don't understand what I'm talking about. I knew what was going to happen when I brought up this subject. It's nothing new to me the path most people will take. I've heard the same reponses for years. But out of all their responses huge holes remain.

You have yet to touch on the main verse that I brought up....John 1:9........"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."

 In my opinion this is the key to understanding why I take the road I do in answering "The Question" as I did. 


I answered "The Question"...........Can those who have never heard the name of Jesus Christ be saved?

"Yes I believe they can,have and will be saved if (The Light,The Word=Jesus) lives in their hearts and their mouths."

I never once said all whom The True Light has shined upon have and will be saved......"That would be every human ever born." Most as well as those living in our time that have heard the name Jesus will reject The True Light,The Word,Jesus The Christ.

If these people have (The Light,The Word) living in their hearts and spoken from their mouths then they have the name J-E-S-U-S written in them. They have already heard him speaking to their hearts. This is and was my whole point.

No Coincidences.. I ran across  this particular sermon this morning . I have been listening to this professor for a couple of weeks.  quick answer is at 26 minutes. 

without checking my memory(never a good thing to do), i believe the answer might be in romans 11

CLOSE.   ROMANS 10:9-10

9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 

10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.


This is the Word that we profess with our mouths and lives in our hearts in order that we might be saved: THAT JESUS IS LORD, and God raised Him from the dead. 


How could anyone have the Word and not know of Jesus?

I'm going to save the video for a minute and get these thoughts down.

First, ScaRZ said "  I knew what was going to happen when I brought up this subject. It's nothing new to me the path most people will take. I've heard the same responses for years. But out of all their responses huge holes remain.
What holes?  That would help to know.   

The King James Version of the Bible has over 1,200 chapters, 31,100 verses and 780,000 words. 
And it's said that the Bible "Proves" (explains) itself, meaning (at least in part) that it is it's OWN Authority, not subject to private interpretation (we know-and you agree, I have no doubt). 


This morning you said, If these people have (The Light,The Word) living in their hearts and spoken from their mouths then they have the name J-E-S-U-S written in them. They have already heard him speaking to their hearts. This is and was my whole point.


No.  You took it one step further, and said they were saved.


IF YOU'RE SAYING 'SAVED' PEOPLE HAVE THE LIGHT AND THE WORD.  WELL, DUH. LOL.  WE'RE DOING ALOT OF WORK FOR NOTHING. 

People can know there is a God.  That is not the same as Knowing God.  Nor does it produce Salvation. 


When God touches a person's heart to seek out Truth, He WILL lead them to, bring them to Jesus~in His Name,
BECAUSE of the sinful nature of every natural (not saved) man.
Otherwise God is a liar.
If you put in their testimony that Jesus is Lord, and that they have received His death  as payment for their sins,- and His Resurrection as The WAY, if we follow Him, THEN I have no problem.
Otherwise, it's the same as always....salvation is available to all~WHOMSOEVER WILL~But no man comes to the Father but by Him. 


Here: "The Light,The Word) living in their hearts and spoken from their mouths then they have the name J-E-S-U-S written in them" 
you are describing the condition, the circumstance of the Indwelling Spirit.

And that doesn't "just happen".  The Spirit cannot dwell in an unclean place.
Cleansing, sanctification, justification, 'as if we-they had never sinned', MUST BE~before we are a 'fit vessel' for the Spirit of God~which is the SAME Spirit that was with Jesus the Christ. 


Someone can spend a lifetime studying the Word, but if it does not bring them to Jesus, they are not saved.  That's what the Word's all about. We have been given to Him.  

If you can give an example of the 'holes' in our arguments, then we might have a better chance of answering.  


There are those who have the testimony of Jesus, and those who are
'unsaved'. Only Two groups; two very different groups.  No matter how 'Godly', how learned they are, they will still stand before Him in their sin.

Now it's said that Jesus is appearing to Muslims all over the world. 
There are testimonies of people dying, going to hell and instructed by an angel to call out to Jesus.  And of people dying and meeting Jesus and sent back to testify.  
But no other name..no other gospel...no other WAY is ever given.

Good points . I'm not studied enough to make a proper answer but I know the Lord has it all  laid out as it should be. I wonder about many things and the whys  and whens, why some people have tons of grief in their lives and some don't. 
 I have a cousin much like Job and he is still in that sad shape but I realize there is a reason for all things and pray each day he will be strong in his faith through multiples of grief and issues.  
  We know that good works alone won't get us there so it does seem logical that a person would need to call on His name in order to be saved. Maybe in some way, the millennium figures in , in those situations.  But like I mentioned, I don't know enough to debate- just what I feel in my heart.

the gospel of john, chapter 1...the word is Christ....period

michael371 wrote:

the gospel of john, chapter 1...the word is Christ....period

That's the one we're here over..  

Just waiting on where to fit in the "forgiveness of sin" part.

michael371 wrote:

the gospel of john, chapter 1...the word is Christ....period

 That is the whole point behind my answer. Is anyone stupid enough to think for one second that the spirit being that later on was given the name Jesus was not there also in The Old Testament?

Was he not there in the fiery furnace?

The Word,The Light has always been there.

Dove......I answered the question from the start........Yes!  

"Yes I believe they can,have and will be saved if (The Light,The Word=Jesus) lives in their hearts and their mouths."


You make it sound like I was adding to it......"All I was doing is trying my best to explain it so you could understand better."




You still will not touch John 1:9......."Why?"


You still have not come out and said either "Yes or No" to the question. If you don't believe they can be saved then say No.


Nobody else has answered the question either.
Most people will beat around the bush just like a politician when ask a question.


John 1:9 is one of the huge holes "If" people believe humans who have "Never" heard of the name Jesus Christ can't be saved.


I believe John 1:9 is the main verse of scripture that "Fills" the Huge Holes.


I just can't believe how it is possible for God to not have a way....."The Way" to reach everyone. I have always believed "Everyone" must be "Given" an opportunity to accept or reject The Light.


If all have an opportunity and they reject then Jesus Christ words ring loud and clear........"and men loved darkness rather than light."

ScaRZ said, "I just can't believe how it is possible for God to not have a way....."The Way" to reach everyone. I have always believed "Everyone" must be "Given" an opportunity to accept or reject The Light."


It does seem impossible to me too, knowing the heart of God for His Creation, man.  But it looks like nobody can find that actual answer anywhere in Scripture.
And to make it even more difficult to defend is everything the Bible DOES say about Salvation over and over again.
And as you said, you've questioned many Christians over this through the years...and you always get the same answers,
the same scriptures back.  That must say something to you and us. In that, you are trying to make scripture say something it does not say.


I agree, God being God, can do as He pleases.  But the provision for someone who does not know Jesus is NOT in the Word.   


Yes, the Holy Spirit,the Holy Ghost= the Spirit of God was here and there on the earth.  
That is His Role, His Function.  It is that aspect of God, sent to the earth to fulfill God's Purpose, whatever that might be at any given time.  


The cloud by day, the fire by night, etc.   The Anointing was upon certain kings, prophets, priests.  And they were led by God, they prayed to God, and were answered by God.  

Yet!  The Bible says 'No man' went to heaven save Him who came from heaven, Yeshua. He was the First.  None preceded Him.  We mentioned that they had to wait for Jesus to finish His mission. 

The record of Jesus' birth evidences the absolute need for sinlessness for the INDWELLING SPIRIT to ABIDE within flesh.
Yet, Jesus said, 'unless you are BORN AGAIN' OF THE SPIRIT,
you cannot see the Kingdom of God.  "I am the Door" .

I will not vary from what is written. That the New Covenant between God and man that provides for Eternal Life through Jesus-Yeshua, the Only Acceptable Sacrifice for sin according to God.

the entire old testament is about Christ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dove you wrote...."you are trying to make scripture say something it does not say."

This is where you are completely wrong. I believe John 1:9 is saying exactly what I've been trying to get over.

You are the one who keeps avoiding John 1:9........."Why is that?"

You still will not give a yes or no answer to the question. 



Dove you wrote....."But the provision for someone who does not know Jesus is NOT in the Word."
  
They could be in The Word and know the one that was given the name Jesus after his birth into this earthly realm ......"Because Jesus is The Word." They could have known him long before he took on the name Jesus. Remember The Word was made flesh. 

The Word of God is way more than just scrolls and what later was put together as The Bible.

michael371 wrote:

the entire old testament is about Christ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 Correct once again!!!

ScaRZ wrote:

michael371 wrote:

the entire old testament is about Christ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 Correct once again!!!

Excuse me but is that not common knowledge?  
But I'm glad you got it right.


ScaRZ, you  just said: This is where you (meaning me) are completely wrong. 
You still will not give a yes or no answer to the question. 
------
I've done nothing but answer you:  with scripture, with commentary.
I'm saying that in your conclusion, you have misinterpreted the verse to make it say something it does not.


John 1:9 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.


Of course I don't object to John 1:9 There is nothing to object to in John 1:9.   Of course Jesus is the Light of the World.


My objection is what you're trying to do with that one verse in the face of a preponderance of scripture to the contrary.

You started out with a question: "Can those who have never heard the name of Jesus Christ be saved?"


My answer is NO! according to the Bible.


But YOU answered:  .."Yes I believe they can,have and will be saved if (The Light,The Word=Jesus) lives in their hearts and their mouths."


I've asked you HOW the Light, the Word has come to live in their heart and mouths....
And YOU have not given me any answer.


By Faith (in Jesus' payment for sin and ascension to heaven) we are saved. 
But this person in your example hasn't heard or read of Jesus. 


So, did he come to the Word in his heart and mouth by the Spirit?
What is the first thing the Spirit does?  He reveals JESUS.
So said Jesus when he told them He and the Father would send the Holy Spirit.


1st John 3 
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God

If any person seeks God, the Word is still Truth: NO man comes to the Father but by Jesus, the Christ.


And this poor soul who has not heard the Word, has never read the Word, and has not heard of Jesus by the Spirit...has not confessed his sins OR his faith, has not repented, or been baptized, has not even had reason to acknowledge his need for a Savior, 
MAY call out to God, who will bring him or lead him to a preacher or a teacher. 

Therefore...... we are called to take the Gospel to every creature.

Dove......."I've already answered it time and time again." You just can not see it.

Every scripture you have quoted is great and I believe all of them. I don't believe any of them extinguishes my point of view at all. 

You and I see the picture in a different light. This reminds me of looking at a great painting of artwork and what I see as the meaning can and will differ from what someone else sees. 

I believe it's possible for humans who have never heard of the name Jesus spoken from the lips of someone (Desciple,Preacher,Teacher...etc) or read it from a Bible to have encountered Jesus (The Word,The Light). This is how and why I believe some have and will be saved.

What is the gospel=The Good News?........."Was the gospel preached before Jesus was born into a flesh body?"............."Did Abraham hear the gospel?" ..........If he did,who taught him?

You say poe-tay-toe and I say poe-tah-toe. Just sayin' . . .

Having said that, I've learned much from the discussion you two are having. The little illustration below pretty much sums up it up. I've found it can be applied to many points of view.

Oh hey, Researcher.  I wonder why you're here.  

 Trying to write again this morning it became obvious I was heading around the same mountain AGAIN, and so had already filed it.  LOL.  
I see an Order in the steps of THE WAY, including in John 1-4.  

In all of history, I know of no reported case of the Spontaneous Remission of Sin. 
There are some pretty wild stories of how God got the Gospel of Jesus Christ to men who sought after God, though.  They are sooo impressive that one would wonder why go to such great lengths if it wasn't essential. 

And I lost a little blurb on the OT while filing.  So maybe later on that.  But I'm ready to let it rest, each in their own understanding.  

John 6:44

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day


John 14:6


“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” 

God is sovereign and it is HIM not us, that is the author and finisher of our salvation,period.  I don't know the answer, but i do see the intertwining of the two verses of scripture that ,without doubt, says that Christ is the ONLY way and you can't walk that way unless you are drawn by God.  I'll leave the saving business to God, He is the sole proprietor of that business.  





.

Well, that one was intense, but it's a great workout.  Iron sharpens iron.

I've been letting the one's I agree with go by.  But it would be good to bring supporting
scripture for them too.  There's always an opportunity there in the search to read 
something we've never actually seen before.

Anyway, I'm happy for the opportunity for open study.  So, when ever ScaRZ or anyone
is ready, let's do it some more!  Bring another!  It's BIBLICAL!  

ScaRZ wrote:

What is the gospel=The Good News?........."Was the gospel preached before Jesus was born into a flesh body?"............."Did Abraham hear the gospel?" ..........If he did,who taught him?

Here is one scripture I found that for me answers the questions.

Galatians 3:8........"And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed."

I wish I had the time to quote every remark but I don't. I try my best to respond to what I believe are key ideas or questions. 

It's very hard typing out words hoping someone will fully understand what I'm trying to get across. If we were sitting across from one another looking in each others eyes it would be so much easier. Words typed are very often misunderstood. When I look in someones eyes or watch their body language I can see quickly if they are understanding what I'm attempting to get across. 

I am who I am. As I've mentioned many times on other forums I love discussing a wide range of topics. I have no desire to get into a war of words. Nobody can force feed anyone and expect a good return. Trying to force feed someone only drives them away.

I also hate buddy buddy systems on forums. This in my opinion is a killer for a forum. Some forums will try their best to run you off if you don't fit in their little clan. I speak my mind and I do my best to let people know who I am. One thing I can't stand is a fake. 

I want to thank "Dove" for standing up for what she believes and answering the question. I've got great respect for her being who she is.

I'm not here to hear myself talk and pat myself on the back.

scarz, one of the biggest problems that hinders the average person that claims to be a Christian is that they don't know who Christ really is!.....i have friends who grab a pew every time the church door opens, that don't know who He is, but yet they wil tell you that they believe in the triune Godhead and he is a deacon in a southern baptist church(which does not surprise me).....people jump up and down, waving the bible screaming "inerrant word of God" not realizing that it is an account of of the "Inerrant Word of God"....the gospel of john, chapter 1 is very, very clear about who Christ is

First, for Bordercollie.  I did listen to the video you posted, and it was very good.  First I heard my point of view, and THEN he said something that sounded a whole lot like ScaRZ point of view.  Hahahaha!

And I thought, well..we're already at that point, so....I didn't bring it out onto the table. 
But if you stop listening in the first half, I think it's very good indeed!  
-------------
And thank you for your kind words, ScaRZ.  

Michael, you posted.  If there is one discussion I do not want to get into here it's
the Trinity.  You all can, of course.  I should not.


I edited.  I'm reading and finding the answers. 


.


.

dove, there is no explanation of the Trinity, we are not capable of understanding it because we are finite creatures with an intellect tied to a 3 dimensional existence.  God is multidimensional....i tried to understand it at one time, but i never read anything that made sense, except for m. heisers explanation, which was inadequate as he said it would be.....i'm just making a reference to Christ and Johns revelation of just who He was and how few people understand....

gOTTA' GO TO THE DOCTOR

ScaRZ wrote:

ScaRZ wrote:

What is the gospel=The Good News?........."Was the gospel preached before Jesus was born into a flesh body?"............."Did Abraham hear the gospel?" ..........If he did,who taught him?

Here is one scripture I found that for me answers the questions.

Galatians 3:8........"And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed."

Wow! I can't believe it I found an article just now by Michael Heiser answering these very questions. He sees Galations 3:8 as important answering these questions as myself. Everyone I will post the article below so please take time to read it when you can. This article touches very well into my view on encountering The Word long before the birth of Jesus into this earth realm.

*******************
Did Abraham Meet Jesus?

By Michael Heiser

Some of the most startling things in the Bible are hidden in plain sight.

Galatians 3:7 is a case in point. Amid the predictable focus on law, grace, and the gospel, Paul blindsides us: “the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, ‘In you shall all the nations be blessed.’”

But Abraham lived two millennia before Jesus. There’s nothing about a crucified Savior in the stories about Abraham. What is Paul thinking? To correctly process Galatians 3:7, we need to think about the gospel in different terms.

We typically think of the gospel in terms of the crucified Savior, Jesus, dying for our sins. But the work of Christ was just the means to accomplish what God sought. God wanted a sinless, holy, human family. The sacrifice of Jesus—fully God and fully human—was the necessary mechanism to achieve that larger goal. The gospel is God’s plan to become a man so He could have that holy, human family. Could Abraham have grasped that?

God’s decision to produce his family through Abraham is described in Genesis 12:1–3: “I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great . . . and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” Paul quoted part of that passage in Galatians 3:7. Paul believed that as a result of that divine encounter, Abraham came away with the knowledge of the gospel: God would become a man to provide the means for a human family. And even more than that, Abraham discerned that he and his offspring—which didn’t yet exist, and which seemingly couldn’t exist—were a critical part of that plan. Was Paul reading a different Old Testament than us? No, Paul got his information about the good news where all the gospel writers did—Jesus (Gal 1:12; 1 Cor 15:.

If John 8:56 is any indication, Jesus happened to be an authority on Abraham’s divine encounter with God: “Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” Abraham saw Jesus’ day? The Jews listening to Jesus immediately understood him to mean that he had met Abraham. That’s why they said in the next verse, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” They were actually right—on both counts.

We know that John referred to Jesus as the Word (John 1:1). Less well known is that the “Word of the Lord” is at times an Old Testament description of the embodied God of Israel. For example, Jeremiah was visited by “the word of the Lord” (Jer 1:2, 4) whom he called Lord God (Jer 1:6). The Lord God, the “word,” is embodied in human form in Jeremiah 1:7: “Then the Lord put out his hand and touched my mouth.” There are other such passages in the Old Testament. One of them is Genesis 15, where the covenant promises between God and Abraham were sealed: “After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision.” Notice that this was a vision. Genesis 12, the passage Paul quoted in Galatians 3, has the same language: “Then the Lord appeared to Abram.”

Paul wasn’t out of his mind. Abraham had met the Word, and through that encounter, he understood the salvation plan of God.

https://blog.logos.com/2018/11/michael-heiser-post/