Will we love the darkness more than the Light?

well, scarz, i'm sorta' back and like i said, i want to continue with a discussion of Isaiah 14....i already know that you understand most of it, probably all of it, but a lot of folks don't because of being force-fed a bunch of traditional bullshit....the fact is, most folks do not understand the OT,period.....they wrongly assume that the OT is all past and it doesn't matter anymore because "we got Jesus" now.....lol, they have ALWAYS has Jesus/Yeshua...the NT is the OT in a revealed form....

i will post this to begin my little thought sharing attempt concerning the meaning of Isaiah 14.....(man, i miss these discussions of this thread due to having to eat.....even worse, my wife had to "dismiss" one of garden clients yesterday, so it will mean even more stuff....i do this for the needy, not the greedy and my wife let the yankee come out of her on this lady....trust me, pissing my wife off is not good at all!)

he name Lucifer has often been understood to be another name for the devil or the satan. This identification has a long history in the church, going back to at least the fourth century. Its origin is actually from a passage in the Old Testament from the book of Isaiah that, to some, speaks of a being cast out of heaven because of pride. Since some people see a reference to the devil being cast out of heaven in the New Testament (Rev 12:9-12; cf. Lk 10:18), they assumed that the Isaiah passage referred to the same thing.
The passage (NRSV): 14:12
How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! 13 You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.’ 15 But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit. 16 Those who see you will stare at you, and ponder over you: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, 17 who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home?’
In the King James translation, verse 12 reads:
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Here is where we find the name Lucifer. The term Lucifer was popularized in English from this King James translation. However, the name does not come from the Hebrew or even from the Greek translation (Septuagint), but from the fourth century AD Latin translation of this verse:
quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes.
But this is not quite as obvious as it sounds even in Latin. The term Lucifer in fourth century Latin was a name for Venus, especially as the morning star. The Latin word Lucifer is composed of two words: lux, or in the genitive form used lucis, (meaning "light") and ferre, which means "to bear" or "to bring." So, the word Lucifer means bearer of light. The same word is used in other places in the Latin Vulgate to translate Hebrew terms that mean "bright," especially associated with the sky:
Job 11:17: And your life will be brighter than the noonday; its darkness will be like the morning.
2 Peter 1:19: You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.
This reflects how the Latin word Lucifer was used in classic Roman poetry, such as this passage from Virgil (Georgics, III, 324-325):

Quote :: Luciferi primo cum sidere frigida rura
carpamus, dum mane novum, dum gramina canent
Let us hasten, when first the Morning Star appears,
To the cool pastures, while the day is new, while the grass is dewy.

The term also occurs in the plural (luciferum) in Job 38:32 to refer to an astral constellation. Other forms of the word are used in similar ways to refer to light or the stars. This reflects the Greek (Septuagint) translation’s use of heosphoros, "morning star" to translate the Hebrew of Isaiah 14:12.
There is some debate about the exact origin of the original Hebrew word in Isaiah 14:12 (helel). The strongest possibility is that it comes from a verbal root that means "to shine brightly," as well as "to offer praise" (where we get the phrase hallelu yah). In any case, the noun form is the Hebrew term for the morning star, in most cases the planet Venus. Both the second century BC Greek translation in the Septuagint, and the fourth century AD Latin translation in the Latin Vulgate understand this to be the meaning of the Hebrew word helel.
So, how did we get from Venus, the morning star, to Lucifer being associated with the devil, especially since that term is used in positive ways even in the New Testament? Well, if we begin with some New Testament passages and incorrectly assume that using the New Testament along with a lot of accumulated tradition is the best way to interpret the Old Testament, then add some of our assumptions, it is not a long trip at all.
In 2 Corinthians 11:14, Paul writes about false apostles:
And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
And in Luke 10:18-19, at the return of the 70 as they comment on their success, Jesus says:
And he said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing shall hurt you."
So, without ever stopping to examine either of those passages to see what was being said in them, and what was meant by the references, we could conclude that the devil/the satan is somehow associated with light and the sky.
If we then add the passage from Revelation 12 about the devil/satan/red dragon/serpent the symbols begin to run together, again before we have done any real study on any of these passages separately to see what each of them is saying. In Revelation 12 the red dragon with seven heads appears in the sky, and his tail sweeps down a third of the stars to earth, and is then later cast down to the earth along with his angels. Of course, at this point, a great many assumptions are introduced into the reading even of the Revelation passage, even though this is obviously extremely figurative language; we just assume what it means.
By adding these three passages together without regard to context, and read them as if they were all speaking in the same way about the same thing to make the same point, we can conclude that we have here a jigsaw picture of a long ago historical event described in great detail (but of course we have to put the pieces together from various bits scattered through literature written 800 years apart!).
Then, if we take that assumption about the meaning of all these texts, and the assumption that adding texts together is the way to understand them (a drastic perversion of the "Scripture interprets Scripture" principle!), and bring that back to the Isaiah text, then it is very easy to reach the conclusion that Isaiah is also describing the same event. There are similar metaphors of light, stars, conflict, and being cast down. Earlier translations (KJV) mistakenly took the Hebrew term sheol in verse 15 as "hell" (in Hebrew it is simply the place where the dead go, a metaphor for death, specifically burial; see Sheol, Hell, and the Dead), which is another piece of the puzzle. So of course, since there is no mention of the "devil" or the "satan" in Isaiah, "Lucifer" must be the name Isaiah uses for him! So, Isaiah is talking about the devil being cast out of heaven!
This is the position that prevailed throughout much of the history of the church until the time of the Reformation and the Enlightenment, when we began asking more direct questions of the biblical text. We also gained more information in new archaeological discoveries of ancient civilizations, including thousands of tablets from Mesopotamia giving us a great deal of information about ancient Mesopotamian and Babylonian religion.
We learned that Babylonian religion was an astral religion, closely related to Canaanite practices, although more focused on the sun, moon, and stars and their motion than on the immediate cycles of nature as it was in Canaan. The Babylonians worshipped as gods the manifestations of celestial bodies. It is from Babylon that we get the signs of the Zodiac representing the constellations. We now know that the two terms used in the Hebrew text of Isaiah, Helel, morning star, and Shahar, dawn, were Babylonian astral deities (which is reflected in most modern translations).
Now, if we look at the text of Isaiah 14 in context, and without the assumptions we brought to it from the New Testament, the meaning of the passage becomes more obvious and goes a radically different direction. The book of Isaiah has spent the first chapters denouncing the sins of Israel and its failure to be God’s people. There have also been expectations that God will work in new ways in the life of the nation to help them recover their mission as God’s people. One of those ways would be through a new king to replace the corrupt Ahaz. Because of his pro-Assyrian policies, the nation was teetering upon the brink of catastrophe as Assyria expanded to the West (see Assyrian Dominance).
Isaiah 13 begins a long section of the book known as "Oracles Against Foreign Nations." This is a standardized format in the prophets for universalizing responsibility to God. Not only Israel, but all nations, were accountable to God and would fall under the same judgment Israel would. As is typical in other prophetic books (Amos, Jeremiah, Ezekiel) not all of these oracles come from the same time period as Isaiah of Jerusalem, but they do follow a similar pattern and serve the same function in the book.
Isaiah 13 is part of the oracle directed against Babylon, probably from a time after the Exile. In very flowery, poetic, and highly figurative language, Babylon is denounced for her arrogance and lack of concern for other nations as she built her empire. It is interesting that in 13:10, specific mention is made of the failure of the Babylonian gods (constellations, sun, moon) to help them when God calls then to accountability.
Chapter 14 then begins with the promise of Israel’s return from Babylonian exile, a theme that dominates the middle section of Isaiah (40-55). Part of that return would involve the downfall of the tyrant king of Babylon (v. 4; probably Nebuchadrezzer; for the same language used of a later Babylonian ruler, Belshazzar, see Dan 5:20). In that context, verses 12-21 are a poetic picture of that downfall. Helel, morning star, and Shahar, dawn, then, are references to the Babylonian gods who could not save the king, and are themselves to be cast down. In fact, there is probably a reference here to the habit of ancient Near Eastern kings proclaiming themselves incarnations of the gods; with the fall of the kings, the gods also fell, often physically as the images that represented them were pulled down and destroyed (recall the symbolism of the overthrow of Saddam Hussein's statue in Baghdad).
So, the Isaiah passage does not connect, either historically or theologically, with the New Testament passages about the devil or the satan. By listening to the Old Testament passage on its own terms within its own context, we discover that Lucifer is not an Old Testament name for the devil or the satan. The passage in Isaiah 14:12-17 is directed at the downfall of the arrogant Babylonian rulers who took Israel into exile. By beginning with the New Testament, by making assumptions not supported by a closer examination of Scripture itself, and by using external theological categories as a lens through which to read Scripture, we may end up badly misreading Isaiah.

So Lucifer is "the arrogant Babylonian rulers who took Israel into exile. "?

according to the above text? (It doesn't mess with me if he is not the same entity as satan). But I'm curious. Is he another fallen angel?
a type of anti-christ prior to Jesus? Is he a spirit or a man, or men?

There's this big black rock that fell from 'heaven' at the Haaj.....
kissed and worshiped. What's up with that? They don't know Yah,
hate His Son, and desperately want to possess Jerusalem, after killing all Jews...

   I want to know the thoughts of God. Everything else is just details.
     A Miracle is when God makes His Reality our Experience

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I've brought up in this thread that I don't believe Lucifer is Satan/The Aversary. I believe this being if we put everything together is just another name for The Antichrist. If we dig deep into scripture we find several names for a character by the name of Nimrod. One such name I believe to be Asshur. This is a very deep study that most people will turn from. I believe Nimrod/Asshur/Lucifer/ The King of Babylon are just four names that fit into one being. This being will rise one day as the character that slides off our tongues so easily........."The Antichrist".

Here is just "One" verse of scripture that turned my head several years ago.

KJV

Isaiah 23:13

"Behold the land of the Chaldeans; this people was not, till Asshur founded it for them that dwell in the wilderness: they set up the towers thereof, they raised up the palaces thereof; and he brought it to ruin."

if i were not so tired,i would continue with something that i think i see in this chapter....this old butt, southern summertime humidity and a big garden make cowards of us all....i think that you are spot on scarz, the resurrected nimrod in the form of tammuz (son of semiramis,venus,isis,ishtar,etc) the ORIGINAL RELIGION.....See, it appears God told them exactly how He was going to redeem mankind while they were all in the garden....every jot and tittle accounted for down through the annals of the future/history events....it was the "shinning ones" attempt to conterfeit the real Christ, including the resurrection.....the problem was that the nachash did not understand the death,burial and resurrection was not for an earthly kingdom....plainly stated in 1 corinthians 2:8: 7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory

scarz, there is an awful lot of stuff contained in this chapter and you know it....need any tomatoes?

oh bythe way....i was cleaning up my wife's canning kitchen, out in the little house, and i have all of my old, pre-internet books that i have left, stored out there....in the process i came across constance cumbleys, "the hidden dangers of the rainbow"....although when i originally read it i did disagree with her on some of her speculations, i found it a very interesting read.... now i consider it a must read....i have found through the years that she may be way,way more correct than i would have ever thought, when i read it....that was at least 15 years ago....i am going to read it again just to see how accurate this little lawyer lady really was( she was a practicing attorney)...if you have never read it, i suggest that you do....i think i remember that i have two copies of it and since i still need to clean up, i can go through the boxes if ya'll want to pass it around amongst yourselves.....

Last edited by michael371 on Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

12How has Lucifer, that rose in the morning, fallen from heaven! He that sent orders to all the nations is crushed to the earth.

this is from brentons version of the septuagint....notice the difference in the kjv below:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning? how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations?

both speak of an entity being being sent to the earth by force....as scarz suspects, it appears to be anti-christ or the "the son of dawn, tammuz"....venus is just another cultural name for semiramis, the wife of nimrod....she was impregnated by a sunbeam by her dead husband,nimrod, who went on to become the sun god after his death...

in the septuagint, it says "orders" are being sent to the nations....the word orders is in italics so it was inserted and may/may not be the exact word used in the original...just for discussion lets assume that it is the correct word....there is an entity sending orders to the nations of the earth, the son of perdition...the nachash is now banished to the earth into the form of a man, the false messiah, the anti-christ who is the antithisis of the real Savior.....now the next verse is a bit puzzling to me:
13But thou saidst in thine heart, I will go up to heaven, I will set my throne above the stars of heaven: I will sit on a lofty mount, on the lofty mountains toward the north:

next, the kjv:
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

i know all of the commentaries concerning this and the generalized approach toward a safe theology, but i have this nagging question concerning this passage....both the septuagint and the kjv say that the antichrist says that he will go into heaven....which heaven?....the one that birds fly into or the abode of God?....my guess that it means the spiritual or "unseen" abode of God....i suppose we could attrbute it to space flight and the technological innovations that are going on or may be going on in the future, but i feel that it would be a stretch to say this....does the anti-christ ascend into the place of God that would be the hearts of men and masqurade as a savior of the world?....in my very unlearned opinion, the mount of the congregation and the mountains of the north are direct mention of babylon and the counterfeit religion based on sun worship that gave birth to every single religion on this earth....

well thunderstorm incomingso i guess i need to post this before power blinks

I see the nachash as satan, and as a spirit who inhabits a man=antichrist; as Jesus was the body for the Holy Spirit of God. The Spirit of God took on flesh. I think it's the same principle.

"the kjv say that the antichrist will go into heaven..."

I don't think so...the antichrist is a man, and flesh cannot
enter into the heavens. It has to be satan...who roams the
earth like a roaring lion...I believe that describes a spirit.

It was satan-a spirit that tempted Jesus with rule over all the nations.

The princes who rule over nations are also spirits-fallen angels. I believe I can substantiate if needed.

   I want to know the thoughts of God. Everything else is just details.
     A Miracle is when God makes His Reality our Experience

Last edited by michael371 on Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

storm over, but there was no prediction of rain today, maybe 20%.....rain and wind, we have had plenty of that....
alright, where was i?.....in the prophesies of the final days, i see so many people making money off their brand of eschatology who don't know if they are scratching their watch or winding their ass...it usually involves some misdirected,and misplaced traditional theology that winds around and conflicts scripture to the point that people just make crap up to fit their own narrative....there are TWO babylons, spiritual and literal, that are mentioned as having a part in the final days...spiritual babylon is described as the "woman who rides the beast"....a woman is always used to portray a church or a particular belief system that is contrary to the guidelines that God ordained....while i could be wrong, i do think that the good ole USA is literal babylon, but it could also be the case that the literal babylon is a relevent term that it could also be a caliphate,too...mystery babylon comes from nimrod, the man who became the "mighty hunter (gibbori) against the Lord"....as i said before, mithraism originated right here.....there are so many videos on astrotheology that i would have a hard time recommending one....disclaimer: astro theology is not for the low-information Christian because it can throw a person for a loop as it describes the counterfeit religion that tries to run parallel with the gospel....it goes from nimrod all the way through catholicism and into the front doors of 1st baptist...

"Lucifer" never said that he would be greater than God, nor displace God, he said he would be LIKE God...these false belief systems that all center around LIGHT, from far eastern to islam, to rome, are trying to be like the Ancient of Days, to disguise themselves as angels of light, and form a church that leaves the true God standing outside and knocking because He is locked out....there is one more, too...the same system that put their Messiah on a cross and killed Him....even though this was ordained in the Divine Providence of a Sovereign God, they are still responsible for their own actions, even if it was for their own benefit(and ours)...rabbinical judaism is just as evil, actually more evil, than the far eastern religions like hinduism,shintuism and the others.....another misconception is that the nation of IS-RA-EL would fall for the anti-christ, i don't see that in scripture....i see Christ talking about accepting another in "their own name" but i don't think there can be any doubt that he was speaking of the bar koachba revolt....simon bar koachba was accepted as the messiah and was crushed in a revolt against the romans that caused widespread devastation among the jews.....

the reason that i suspect the USA to be babylon, in the literal sense, is the comparison to both, the nimrodian attitude of being able to circumvent God that is prevalent in the country today, and nebuchnezzars babylon.....that attitude includes a large section of the populace and the reprobates in washington and hollywood....nebuchanezzars babylon was about wealth, power, and extravagance, BUT there was a direct prescence of God as he used Nebuchanezzar to execute his judgement on judah....Maybe the USA isn't literal babylon. but i do know that it will be SOMEBODY and they will get destroyed

dove, i corrected that, i left part out as i typed it....mind works faster than these worn out fingers, which causes me to leave out stuff

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Good study going on here Michael and Dove. I'm going to lay out some ideas when I get some time. My Dad had a cancer removed from his lip and it was pretty good size before it was finally removed. It's really sad when it takes a month and a half before he finally got it removed. His main family Doctor did the biopsy or it would have been August before the plastic surgeon would have seen him for the first visit. He is doing better but it was rough the first three days. Dad has dementia and that brings in a whole other set of problems.

I'm sorry to hear that Scarz, but glad he's doing better with that. It is a hard row to hoe.
I'm following along in this study- very interesting and thought provoking . Speaking of Nimrod, At my uncle's funeral, the ancient pastor said about my uncle and his hunting.. Pastor said " I bet the great hunter before the Lord, Nimrod ,and Jim (christian)are talking right now about all the hunting up there".. I about fell out on the floor. That's the state of our education in some places.

bordercollie wrote:: I'm sorry to hear that Scarz, but glad he's doing better with that. It is a hard row to hoe.
I'm following along in this study- very interesting and thought provoking . Speaking of Nimrod, At my uncle's funeral, the ancient pastor said about my uncle and his hunting.. Pastor said " I bet the great hunter before the Lord, Nimrod ,and Jim (christian)are talking right now about all the hunting up there".. I about fell out on the floor. That's the state of our education in some places.

yeah judy, i am not surprised....the kings english "before" was also used in instances to mean "against" and is very simple to find that out, even for a 1st grader that can read worth a hoot...its one of the reasons that there is so much heretical doctrine infiltrating the modern church

dementia and alzheimers are two terrible situations...i have a friend that i grew up with,played sports with and worked with who has dementia....its hard for me to see him like that

ScaRZ, sending prayers. That's difficult on everyone.

BC, I can imagine you were 'floored'. God knows, even as men do not know what they say! We can always count on that.
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I'm just doing word searches to see if we can rightly determine the identity of Lucifer.
I started with nachash, then Lucifer, then satan.

I have to say that whereas I find only ONE mention of Lucifer by name in the entire Bible, (so far, after a few hours research and compiling,) (and that satan is identified by name and by other names and descriptions), I'm not sure why we would make anything at all of Lucifer.

NACHASH:

5172 nachash naw-khash' a primitive root; properly, to hiss, i.e. whisper a (magic) spell; generally, to prognosticate:--X certainly, divine, enchanter, (use) X enchantment, learn by experience, X indeed, diligently observe.

5173 nachash nakh'-ash from 5172; an incantation or augury:--enchantment.

5175 nachash naw-khawsh' from 5172; a snake (from its hiss):--serpent.

5176 Nachash naw-khawsh' the same as 5175; Nachash, the name of two persons apparently non-Israelite:--Nahash.

5904 `Iyr Nachash eer naw-khawsh' from 5892 and 5175; city of a serpent; Ir-Nachash, a place in Palestine:--Ir-nahash.

=================================================

LUCIFER
Isa 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, H1966 son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! H1966: heylel

1966 heylel hay-lale' from 1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star:--lucifer.
1984 halal haw-lal' a primitive root; to be clear (orig. of sound, but usually of color); to shine; hence, to make a show, to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave; causatively, to celebrate; also to stultify:--(make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool(- ish, -ly), glory, give (light), be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, (sing, be worthy of) praise, rage, renowned, shine.

If you will read the description in Ezekiel 28, I believe that God is speaking of satan, calling him the prince of Tyrus, and it is VERY similar to the above description of LUCIFER as well as satan.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+28&version=AKJV

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SATAN appears 36 times in 33 verses in the NT KJV
G4567

Luke 10:18 Jesus says, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.”

Luk 22:3 Then entered Satan G4567 into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan G4567 himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, G4567 which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
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ACCORDING TO STRONGS THERE ARE TWO REF. TO SATAN IN HEBREW:
7853 satan saw-tan' a primitive root; to attack, (figuratively) accuse:--(be an) adversary, resist.

7854 satan saw-tawn' from 7853; an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch-enemy of good:--adversary, Satan, withstand.
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And a Greek word of Hebrew origin:
Belial bel-ee'-al of Hebrew origin (1100); worthlessness; Belial, as an epithet of Satan:--Belial.

   I want to know the thoughts of God. Everything else is just details.
     A Miracle is when God makes His Reality our Experience

These from Strong's GREEK Lexicon are are other Bible names for satan by their description. A couple have Hebrew origins. http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=greeklexicon&isindex=SATAN

Result of search for "SATAN":
476. antidikos an-tid'-ee-kos from 473 and 1349; an opponent (in a lawsuit); specially, Satan (as the arch-enemy):--adversary.

623. Apolluon ap-ol-loo'-ohn active participle of 622; a destroyer (i.e. Satan):--Apollyon.

954. Beelzeboul beh-el-zeb-ool' of Chaldee origin (by parody on 1176); dung-god; Beelzebul, a name of Satan:--Beelzebub.

955. Belial bel-ee'-al of Hebrew origin (1100); worthlessness; Belial, as an epithet of Satan:--Belial.

1228. diabolos dee-ab'-ol-os from 1225; a traducer; specially, Satan (compare 7854):--false accuser, devil, slanderer.

2190. echthros ech-thros' from a primary echtho (to hate); hateful (passively, odious, or actively, hostile); usually as a noun, an adversary (especially Satan):--enemy, foe.

2725. kategoros kat-ay'-gor-os from 2596 and 58; against one in the assembly, i.e. a complainant at law; specially, Satan:--accuser.

2888. kosmokrator kos-mok-fat'-ore from 2889 and 2902; a world-ruler, an epithet of Satan:--ruler.

3789. ophis of'-is probably from 3700 (through the idea of sharpness of vision); a snake, figuratively, (as a type of sly cunning) an artful malicious person, especially Satan:--serpent.

4566. Satan sat-an' of Hebrew origin (7854); Satan, i.e. the devil:--Satan. Compare 4567.

4567. Satanas sat-an-as' of Chaldee origin corresponding to 4566 (with the definite affix); the accuser, i.e. the devil:--Satan.

   I want to know the thoughts of God. Everything else is just details.
     A Miracle is when God makes His Reality our Experience

dove, scarz and i have already been down this road....lucifer is only mentioned once and only in the KJV( later added to the brenton version of the septuagint)....it was taken from jeromes vulgate,which is the forerunner of the douy rheams catholic version of today...it is latin, not hebrew and was inserted because they did not understand the meaning of heylel ben shakar(shakur)....lucifer has nothing to do with a name for the nachash,devil,etc....remember, satan (diabolis) entered judas iscariot, the ONLY time it is stated that a DEVIL entered into a person....diamon (demon) is always the term used except in that one case....in order to be like God, satan would have to enter into the antichrist during the antichrist reign on earth, or at least for the last 3 1/2 years, so Isaiah could well be talking to satan/antichrist or both...."son of perdition" is only used for two people, judas and the antichrist...i told you there was a whole bunch of stuff in isaiah 14

That was very interesting that only Judas was said to have embodied satan.
And I'd lost track of Isaiah 14 while scanning for anything I really recognized in the posts..but now have read it. I can't say it clarified much for me.
I know evil when I see it, hear it, smell it. I do try not to step in it. But I just can't go this deep into details. It was just not on my list from God of things to do. BUT! Can you just tell me who Lucifer is? I'm very curious. I'll say please..
PLEASE ? thanks

   I want to know the thoughts of God. Everything else is just details.
     A Miracle is when God makes His Reality our Experience

....its latin for the "light bringer", the son of the dawn, the antichrist...satan embodies him....

Lucifer (/ˈluːsɪfər/ LEW-si-fər; "light-bringer") is a Latin name for the planet Venus as the morning star in the ancient Roman era, and is often used for mythological and religious figures associated with the planet. Due to the unique movements and discontinuous appearances of Venus in the sky, mythology surrounding these figures often involved a fall from the heavens to earth or the underworld. Interpretations of a similar term in the Hebrew Bible, translated in the King James Version as "Lucifer", led to a Christian tradition of applying the name Lucifer and its associated stories of a fall from heaven to Satan. Most modern scholarship regards these interpretations as questionable, and translates the term in the relevant Bible passage (Isaiah 14:12) as "morning star" or "shining one" rather than as a proper name, "Lucifer".

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Lucifer is not Satan. Lucifer is just another name for Asshur/Nimrod/The King of Babylon the same man who built Babylon after the flood. He also founded the land of the Chaldeans as well as Assyria. This man carries many,many names from the peoples of all those nations that were scattered at Babel.

He was worshipped as the Assyrians primary god. If we read Genesis10:8-11 he is named as both Nimrod and Asshur. Notice how the lay out of the verses are just a continuation........."Nimrod is Asshur".........He went out of the land and built Nineveh,Rehoboth aand Caalah. Just the beginning of his kingdom was Babel,Erech,Accad and Celneh........."Then he went forth out."

Genesis 10:8-11

And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.

He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.

And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.

Out of that land went forth Asshur, and builded Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah,

its really simple, nimrod/tammuz(antichrist figures) originated the pagan religious system....scarz, i am going to add one name to the equation...."hammarapi"(hammarabi)"the first law-giver"...i have seen evidence that there was more than one hammarabi beside the original one...while some educated idiots want to claim that moses was hammarabi, its not possible for that to be the case because moses was around 1250 bc and hammarabi was around 1750 bc so they can not be one and the same..scarz, i think i just discovered something a bit off center here concerning some dates with nimrod,hammurabi and the noahic lineage....let me go take a shower and do some of doves fact checking this afternoon concerning this.....now that we have the lucifer issue settled, here we have something else that ain't right...shit, i did not want to do any typing today....there is something that bible studying folks MUST understand and that is that in some cases, historical people and bible people may be the same people, but have been transliterated a different name....everything would have been much easier if errrrrybody in the middle east still spoke the same language inside of screwing it up trying to fight God....

i am too old, slow and stupid to try to have a garden and do serious thinking and research anymore....when my brain is in high gear, my ass is is park and vice versa....

I appreciate you all going back and explaining what you see. I read some commentaries this morning too (both sides), and will no doubt research it some more. I really do thank you. My eyes glazed over in some of the accompanying history, a revolt..etc. (sorry. I try)

AS TO satan and Lucifer:

THIS: Isa 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, H1966 son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

And THIS: Luke 10:18 Jesus says, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.”

coupled with the description of satan BEFORE his fall- before he
became the adversary of God in his rebellion, is too close for me to
discount it as not describing the same entity.

THEN, add to it that Lucifer is a Latin translation of  H1966:  heylel,
the root of which is 1984 halal - a good description of satan
BEFORE THE FALL, before being cast down and brought low.

Ezekiel 28:11   Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God;
Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;
every precious stone was thy covering,
the sardius, topaz, and the diamond,
the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper,
the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold:
the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes
was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so:
thou wast upon the holy mountain of God;
thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,
till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise
they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned:
therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God:
and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub,
from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty,
thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness:
I will cast thee to the ground,
I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities,
by the iniquity of thy traffick;
therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee,
it shall devour thee,
and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth
in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee:
thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
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Were we told a different entity, named Lucifer was in the Garden? No.
But here in Ezekiel we have God's description of satan before the fall, and it corresponds to the description of Lucifer.
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So I do believe the seraphim (serapha?) in heaven that was described as "the Morning Star" and translated into Latin as the word Lucifer, was called satan after his rebellion and fall.

The 'name' satan is more important for the characteristics than any other reason. We know them by their Fruit.

   I want to know the thoughts of God. Everything else is just details.
     A Miracle is when God makes His Reality our Experience

isaiah 14, verse 16: read carefully

They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee,saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

this is concerning antichrist, ezekial 28 is concerning satan

scarz, here is a neat little read....there is a particular section that i saw in there that parallels exactly something that i read in "hidden dangers of the rainbow" a few minutes ago, AND whats being attempted in america right now:...uncanny how this happens

Who Was Nimrod?

by Dr. David Livingston

"Cush was the father of Nimrod, who grew to be a mighty warrior on the earth. He was a might hunter before the LORD; that is why it is said, "Like Nimrod, a mighty hunter before the LORD. " The centers of his kingdom were Babylon, Erech, Akkad and Calneh in Shinar. (Genesis 10:8-10) Many consider this to be a positive, complimentary testimony about Nimrod. It is just the opposite! First, a little background study is necessary.

Cultural Connections in the Ancient Near East

Will we love the darkness more than the Light? - Page 12 Nimrod-gilgamesh

[size=undefined]Found at Khorsabad,this eighth century BC stone relief is identified as Gilgamesh. The best-known of ancient Mesopotamian heroes, Gilgamesh was king of Uruk in southern Mesopotamia. His story is known in the poetic Gilgamesh Epic, but there is no historical evidence for his exploits in the story. He is described as part god and part man, a great builder and warrior, and a wise man in the story. Not mentioned in the Bible, the author suggests Gilgamesh is to be identified with Biblical Nimrod in Genesis 10:8-12.[/size]

Besides the stories of the Creation and Flood in the Bible, there ought to be similar stories on clay tablets found in the cultures near and around the true believers. These tablets may have a reaction, or twisted version, in their accounts of the Creation and Flood. In the praise GOD

.davelivingston.com/histgeopenta.htm#Table of Nations]post-Flood genealogical records[/url] of Genesis 10, we note that the sons of Ham were: Cush, Mizraim, Put and Canaan. Mizraim became the Egyptians. No one is sure where Put went to live. And it is obvious who the Canaanites were. Cush lived in the "land of Shinar," which most scholars consider to be Sumer. There they developed the first civilization after the Flood. The sons of Shem -- the Semites -- were also mixed, to some extent, with the Sumerians.
We suggest that Sumerian Kish, the first city established in Mesopotamia after the Flood, took its name from the man known in the Bible as Cush. The first kingdom established after the Flood was Kish, and the name "Kish" appears often on clay tablets. The early post-Flood Sumerian king lists (not found in the Bible) say that "kingship descended from heaven to Kish" after the Flood. (The Hebrew name "Cush" was much later moved to present-day Ethiopia as migrations took place from Mesopotamia to other places.)
The Sumerians, very early, developed a religio-politico state which was extremely binding on all who lived in it (except for the rulers, who were a law unto themselves). This system was to influence the Ancient Near East for over 3000 years. Other cultures which followed the Sumerian system were Accad, Babylon, Assyria, and Persia, which became the basis of Greece and Rome's system of rule. Founded by Cush, the Sumerians were very important historically and Biblically.

Was "Nimrod" Godly or Evil?

Will we love the darkness more than the Light? - Page 12 Nimrod-babylon

[size=undefined]Nimrod started his kingdom at Babylon (Genesis 10:10). Babylon later reached its zenith under Nebuchadnezzar (sixth century BC). Pictured are mudbrick ruins of Nebuchadnezzar's city along with ancient wall lines and canals.[/size]

First, what does the name Nimrod mean? It comes from the Hebrew verb marad, meaning "rebel." Adding an "n" before the "m" it becomes an infinitive construct, "Nimrod." (see Kautzsch 1910: 137 2b; also BDB 1962: 597). The meaning then is "The Rebel." Thus "Nimrod" may not be the character's name at all. It is more likely a derisive term of a type, a representative, of a system that is epitomized in rebellion against the Creator, the one true God. Rebellion began soon after the Flood as civilizations were restored. At that time this person became very prominent.
In Genesis 10:8-11 we learn that "Nimrod" established a kingdom. Therefore, one would expect to find also, in the literature of the ancient Near East, a person who was a type, or example, for other people to follow. And there was. It is a well-known tale, common in Sumerian literature, of a man who fits the description. In addition to the Sumerians, the Babylonians wrote about this person; the Assyrians likewise; and the Hittites. Even in Palestine, tablets have been found with this man's name on them. He was obviously the most popular hero in the Ancient Near East.

Will we love the darkness more than the Light? - Page 12 Nimrod-city

[size=undefined]Part of Nimrod's kingdom (Genesis 10:11), Nineveh along the Tigris River continued to be a major city in ancient Assyria. Today adjacent to modern Mosul, the ruins of ancient Nineveh are centered on two mounds, the acropolis at Kuyunjik and Nebi Yunis (Arabic "Prophet Jonah"). Pictured is Sennacherib's "Palace without a rival" on Kuyunjik, constructed at the end of the seventh century BC and excavated by Henry Layard in the early 20th century.[/size]

The Gilgamesh Epic

Will we love the darkness more than the Light? - Page 12 Nimrod-tablet

[size=undefined]The Babylonian Flood Story is told on the 11th tablet of the Gilgamesh Epic, almost 200 lines of poetry on 12 clay tablets inscribed in cuneiform script. A number of different versions of the Gilgamesh Epic have been found around the ancient Near East, most dating to the seventh century BC. The most complete version came from the library of Ashurbanipal at Nineveh. Commentators agree that the story comes from a much earlier period, not too long after the Flood as described in the story.[/size]

The person we are referring to, found in extra-Biblical literature, was Gilgamesh. The first clay tablets naming him were found among the ruins of the temple library of the god Nabu (Biblical Nebo) and the palace library of Ashurbanipal in Nineveh. Many others have been found since in a number of excavations. The author of the best treatise on the Gilgamesh Epic says,

Quote :: The date of the composition of the Gilgamesh Epic can therefore be fixed at about 2000 BC. But the material contained on these tablets is undoubtedly much older, as we can infer from the mere fact that the epic consists of numerous originally independent episodes, which, of course, did not spring into existence at the time of the composition of our poem but must have been current long before they were compiled and woven together to form our epic (Heidel 1963: 15).

Quote :: Yet his arrogance, ruthlessness and depravity were a subject of grave concern for the citizens of Uruk (his kingdom). They complained to the great god Anu, and Anu instructed the goddess Aruru to create another wild ox, a double of Gilgamesh, who would challenge him and distract his mind from the warrior's daughter and the noblemen's spouse, whom it appears he would not leave in peace (Roux 1966: 114).

The Epic of Gilgamesh has some very indecent sections. Alexander Heidel, first translator of the epic, had the decency to translate the vilest parts into Latin. Spieser, however, gave it to us "straight" ( Pritchard 1955: 72). With this kind of literature in the palace, who needs pornography? Gilgamesh was a vile, filthy, man. Yet the myth says of him that he was "2/3 god and 1/3 man."

Gilgamesh is Nimrod

Will we love the darkness more than the Light? - Page 12 Nimrod-ziggurat

[size=undefined]Model of ancient ziggurat.[/size]

How does Gilgamesh compare with "Nimrod?" Josephus says of Nimrod,

Quote :: Now it was Nimrod who excited them to such an affront and contempt of God. He was the grandson of Ham, the son of Noah -- a bold man, and of great strength of hand. He persuaded them not to ascribe it to God, as if it were through his means they were happy, but to believe that it was their own courage which procured that happiness. He also gradually changed the government into tyranny -- seeing no other way of turning men from the fear of God, but to bring them into a constant dependence upon his own power. He also said he would be revenged on God, if he should have a mind to drown the world again; for that he would build a tower too high for the waters to be able to reach! and that he would avenge himself on God for destroying their forefathers (Ant. 1: iv: 2)

What Josephus says here is precisely what is found in the Gilgamesh epics. Gilgamesh set up tyranny, he opposed YHVH and did his utmost to get people to forsake Him.
Two of the premiere commentators on the Bible in Hebrew has this to say about Genesis 10:9,

Quote :: Nimrod was mighty in hunting, and that in opposition to YHVH; not "before YHVH" in the sense of according to the will and purpose of YHVH, still less, . . . in a simply superlative sense . . . The name itself, "Nimrod" from marad, "we will revolt," points to some violent resistance to God . . . Nimrod as a mighty hunter founded a powerful kingdom; and the founding of this kingdom is shown by the verb with vav consecutive, to have been the consequence or result of his strength in hunting, so that hunting was intimately connected with the establishing of the kingdom. Hence, if the expression "a mighty hunter" relates primarily to hunting in the literal sense, we must add to the literal meaning the figurative signification of a "hunter of men" (a trapper of men by stratagem and force); Nimrod the hunter became a tyrant, a powerful hunter of men (Keil and Delitzsch 1975: 165).

Quote :: "in the face of YHVH can only mean "in defiance of YHVH," as Josephus and the Targums understand it (op. cit.: 166).

Quote :: And the proverb must have arisen when other daring and rebellious men followed in Nimrod's footsteps and must have originated with those who saw in such conduct an act of rebellion against the God of salvation, in other words, with the possessors of the divine promise of grace (loc. cit.).

Will we love the darkness more than the Light? - Page 12 Nimrod-zigurratatur

[size=undefined]Often attributed to Nimrod, the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11:1-9) was not a Jack and the Beanstalk type of construction, where people were trying to build a structure to get into heaven. Instead, it is best understood as an ancient ziggurat (Assyrian "mountaintop"), as the one pictured here from ancient Ur of the Chaldees, Abraham's hometown (Genesis 11:31). A ziggurat was a man-made structure with a temple at its top, built to [size=undefined]worship the host of heaven[/size].[/size]

After the Flood there was, at some point, a breakaway from YHVH. Only eight people descended from the Ark. Those people worshipped YHVH. But at some point an influential person became opposed to YHVH and gathered others to his side. I suggest that Nimrod is the one who did it. Cain had done similarly before the Flood, founding a new city and religious system.
Our English translation of the Hebrew of Genesis 10:8-10 is weak. The author of this passage of Scripture will not call Gilgamesh by his name and honor him, but is going to call him by a derisive name, what he really is -- a rebel. Therefore we should translate Genesis 10:8-10 to read,

Quote :: Cush begat Nimrod; he began to be a tyrant in the earth. He was a tyrannical hunter in opposition to the Lord. Thus it is said, "Nimrod the tyrannical opponent of YHVH."

Likewise, Gilgamesh was a man who took control by his own strength. In Genesis 10 Nimrod is presented as a type of him. Nimrod's descendants were the ones who began building the tower in Babel where the tongues were changed. Gilgamesh is a type of early city founders. (Page numbers below are from Heidel 1963)

Quote :: He is a "shepherd" .................. page 18
From Uruk ............................. page 17 (Kramer 1959: 31 calls Uruk, Erech.)
A giant ................................... page 17 (11 cubits)
Builds cities ............................ page 17
Vile man "takes women" ......... page 18
Mighty hunter ......................... page 18

Gilgamesh Confronts YHVH!

The name of YHVH rarely appears in extra-Biblical literature in the Ancient Near East. Therefore we would not expect to find it in the Gilgamesh epic. But why should the God of the Jews rarely be mentioned? The Hebrew Bible is replete with the names of other gods.
On the other hand, the nations surely knew of Him even though they had no respect for Him. If so, how might His Name appear in their literature, if at all? The name of YHVH, in a culture which is in rebellion against His rule, would most likely be in a derisive form, not in its true form. Likewise, the writers of Scripture would deride the rebels.

Putting the Bible and the Gilgamesh Epic Together

The Gilgamesh Epic describes the first "God is Dead" movement. In the Epic, the hero is a vile, filthy, perverted person, yet he is presented as the greatest, strongest, hero that ever lived. (Heidel 1963: 18). So that the one who sent the Flood will not trouble them anymore, Gilgamesh sets out to kill the perpetrator. He takes with him a friend who is a monstrous half-man, half-animal -- Enkidu. Together they go on a long journey to the Cedar Mountain to find and destroy the monster who sent the Flood. Gilgamesh finds him and finally succeeds in cutting off the head of the creature whose name is "Huwawa" ("Humbaba" in the Assyrian version; see Heidel 1963: 34ff).
Is there a connection with the Gilgamesh epic and Genesis 10? Note what Gilgamesh says to Enkidu, the half-man, half-beast, who accompanied him on his journey, found in Tablet 111, lines 147 - 150.

Quote :: "If I fall," Gilgamesh says, "I will establish a name for myself. 'Gilgamesh is fallen,' they will say, 'in combat with terrible Huwawa.'"

But the next five lines are missing from all tablets found so far! Can we speculate on what they say? Let's try . . . We suggest that those five lines include,

Quote :: "But if I win,.. they will say, Gilgamesh, the mighty vanquisher of Huwawa!"

Why do we say that? Because Genesis 10:9 gives us the portion missing from the Gilgamesh tablets. Those lines include... "it is said, Nimrod (or Gilgamesh) the mighty vanquisher of YHVH." This has to be what is missing from all the clay tablets of the Gilgamesh story. The Gilgamesh Epic calls him Huwawa; the Bible calls Him YHVH.

Will we love the darkness more than the Light? - Page 12 Nimrod-head

[size=undefined]This face supposedly represents Huwawa who, according to the Gilgamesh's Epic, sent the Flood on the earth. According to the story, Huwawa (Humbaba in the Assyrian version) was killed by Gilgamesh and his half-man/half-beast friend, Enkidu. The author suggests Huwawa is the ancient pagan perspective of Yahweh (YHVH), the God of the Bible. About 3 inches (7.5 cm), this mask is dated to around the sixth century BC. Of an unknown provenance, it is now in the British Museum.[/size]

Heidel, speaking of the incident as it is found on Tablet V says,

Quote :: All we can conclude from them (the lost lines) is that Gilgarnesh and Enkidu cut off the head of Humbaba (or Huwawa) and that the expedition had a successful issue (ending) (1963: 47).

The missing lines from the Epic are right there in the Bible!
Because of the parallels between Gilgamesh and Nimrod, many scholars agree that Gilgamesh is Nimrod. Continuing with Gilgamesh's fable, he did win, he did vanquish Huwawa and took his head. Therefore he could come back to Uruk and other cities and tell the people "not to worry about YHVH anymore, he is dead. I killed him over in the Lebanon mountains. So just live however you like, I will be your king and take care of you."
There are still other parallels between the Bible and the Gilgamesh epic: "YaHVeH" has a somewhat similar sound to "Huwawa." Gilgamesh did just as the "sons of god" in Genesis 6 did. The "sons of god" forcibly took men's wives. The Epic says that is precisely what Gilgamesh did. The Bible calls Nimrod a tyrant, and Gilgamesh was a tyrant. There was a Flood in the Bible, there is a flood in the Epic. Cush is mentioned in the Bible, Kish in the Epic. Erech is mentioned in Scripture, Uruk was Gilgamesh's city. Gilgamesh made a trip to see the survivor of the Flood. This was more likely Ham than Noah, since "Nimrod" was Ham's grandson! Historically, Gilgamesh was of the first dynasty of Uruk. As Jacobsen points out (1939: 157), kings before Gilgamesh may be fictional, but not likely. The fact that the Gilgamesh Epic also contains the Deluge story would indicate a close link with events immediately following the Flood. S.N. Kramer says,

Quote :: A few years ago one would have strongly doubted his (historical) existence . . . we now have the certitude that the time of Gilgamesh corresponds to the earliest period of Mesopotamian history. (Kramer 1959: 117)

Will we love the darkness more than the Light? - Page 12 Nimrod-palace

[size=undefined]Originally established by Nimrod (Genesis 10:11), and today known as Nimrud, Calah became an important city in Iraq. This is an artist's reconstruction of the interior of Tiglath-pileser III's palace (late seventh century BC).[/size]

What a contrast Psalm 2 is compared with the Gilgamesh Epic!

Quote :: Why do the nations conspire and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the LORD and against his Anointed One. "Let us break their chains," they say, "and throw off their fetters." The One enthroned in heaven laughs, the Lord scoffs at them. Then he rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying, "I have installed my King on Zion, my holy hill." I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me, "you are my Son, today I have become your Father, Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession. You will rule them with an iron scepter; you will dash them to pieces like pottery." Therefore, you kings, be wise; he warned, you rulers of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him. [size=undefined](Psalm 2)[/size]

this is a good video that kinda' fell into my lap today concerning what i am looking into....this guy is pretty damn good bible teacher

michael371 wrote:: isaiah 14, verse 16: read carefully

They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee,saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

this is concerning antichrist, ezekial 28 is concerning satan

I'm still defending the pov that the "Morning Star" is not another fallen angel and not the antichrist either.

I realize verse 16 is referring to antichrist, A MAN, (and that Ezekiel 28 is re: satan.)

Another verse re satan and light.
2 Corinthians 11:14, (Paul writes about false apostles):
And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

The question is how does Isaiah 14 relate to Isaiah 16.
(and I guess, is Lucifer the name of antichrist?) to which I say No.
Just get rid of the word Lucifer and substitute "morning star").
Is Morning Star the name of the antichrist? I'm going with No.
Jerome didn't do anybody any favors on this one.

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning? how art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations?

Obviously, no man fell from heaven, so we're talking about one who was once an angel. (and again, by the descriptions, seems to be the one who was once described as the MORNING STAR before his fall and satan AFTER the fall.)

As is true in much of the Bible, their names reflect their character.
We really can't have the heavenly 'Morning Star' , the cherub that covereth, down here operating as God's Adversary. That would confuse everyone.
-----
Sooo...does satan inhabit THE (man) antichrist as he did Judas?
Or take him over in some other way?

Staying with Isaiah 14:29 Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.
A cockatrice is a poisonous serpent. That's alot of serpents!
What do we do with all that?

Remember the verses we had on how we are always under one spirit or the other? Were not all men of those days already under satan's rule except for God's called out ones? (prophets and priests)

   I want to know the thoughts of God. Everything else is just details.
     A Miracle is when God makes His Reality our Experience

michael371 wrote:: this is a good video that kinda' fell into my lap today concerning what i am looking into....this guy is pretty damn good bible teacher

https://youtu.be/KVE2PdY-qq

I LOVE this kinda stuff. I scanned the video quickly and I know what I’m watching later this evening.

!! FOXTROT JULIET BRAVO !!

Yes, very good stuff !!!
A while back, and Mike may or may not remember this which I relayed in an email to him... I can't find my proof though.. anyways, I was researching the name kushner and do you know what the article mentioned? That kushner means descendant of cush. just throwing this out there...no proof of where I found it as of yet.Probably nothing but is interesting .

Bordercollie wrote:: I was researching the name kushner and do you know what the article mentioned? That kushner means descendant of cush. just throwing this out there...no proof of where I found it as of yet.

Bordercollie, I admit to being rather intrigued so did a search on duck-duck-go and only came away with one good hit. All the other hits were just about the name Cush without the Kushner part. Anyway, maybe this is what you saw.

https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Is-Jared-Kushner-the-Anti-Christ

Quote :: I took a special interest in Kushner’s name. It reminded me of Cush, one of the early patriarchs who became a leader. He had an evil agenda to bring all the people together under one huge nation. It would be centered around the tower of Babel. It was the equivalent of the desire of the New World Order where there is a plan for a one world government to bring all the nations together under a despot. More interesting is the name of Kushner’s first name, Jared. Jared is a Hebrew word meaning “one who rules”. Therefore Jared Kushner is Cush who rules. Cush means "chaos". In 33 degree Freemasonry, the motto is "Ordo Ab Chao", which means "Order out of Chaos". Freemasons believe Nimrod is one of the first founders of Freemasonry for he was the great builder of the Tower of Babel.

https://books.google.co.za/books?id=szgnwKRanHEC&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=cush+means+chaos&source=bl&ots=saa5nhUCz7&sig=5jCr_snoBATWSDFEjOoyF1k6o1I&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiCxLTfnKHSAhWCL8AKHbdMDmYQ6AEINjAF#v=onepage&q=cush%20means%5D&f=false

Did a search on Cush means chaos. Screenshot is from link above. Sorry that it goes to a Screwgoole link. I try to avoid that. Any-whoooo, hope you found this interesting.

Will we love the darkness more than the Light? - Page 12 Chaos_10

!! FOXTROT JULIET BRAVO !!

Thank you Researcher. I'm looking back to see if I can find the exact link but so far no .. I use duck most of the time too . Again, thanks for posting.

edit: found old emails I sent to M . "The link to that page is no longer available" when I clicked on the link tonight. It should go to crusader journal site..

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/people/mystery-as-pagan-altar-and-symbol-unearthed-in-edinburgh-s-holyrood-park-1-4952500

Elite Posts : 1954 Reputation : 62 Join date : 2012-01-05

You said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High. But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit. (Isaiah 14:13–15)

Most people take these verses to be about Satan/Lucifer but they are about The King of Babylon who was Nimrod/Asshur. These verses fit like a glove when thinking back to the Tower of Babel. Nimrod is dreaming in his mind about the Tower stretching into the heavens where he sits on his thrown. The Stars of God are The Host of Heaven/Angels/Sons of God where Nimrod dreams of his thrown being above all of them. Nimrod sees himself becoming like The Most High.

I believe he was the Antichrist and he will be The Antichrist. He will be a copycat of Jesus being the first and the last.

“Because his name seems to be connected with the verb ‘to rebel’ (mãrad), tradition has identified him with tyrannical power. He was the founder of the earliest imperial world powers in Babylon and Assyria. The table [Genesis 10] simply presents him as a mighty hunter, a trait found commonly in Assyrian kings. He was founder of several powerful cities. The centers he established became major enemies of Israel.” (Bible Knowledge Commentary)

“And he says before: then there will be peace in the earth, when seven shepherds will arise in it, and eight attacks (lit. ‘bites’) of men, and they will encircle Assur, that is, Antichrist, in the ditch of Nebroth.” (From Victorinus Poetovionensis: Commentarius In Apocalypsin)

“Now it was Nimrod who excited them to such an affront and contempt of God…a bold man, and of great strength of hand… He…gradually changed the government into tyranny—seeing no other way of turning men from the fear of God, but to bring them into a constant dependence upon his own power. He also said he would be revenged on God, if he should have a mind to drown the world again… And that he would avenge himself on God for destroying their forefathers!” (Josephus, Antiquities, Part I, 4:2.)

scarz, its the only possibility that fits the scriptural narrative....lets continue on....nimrod and gilgamesh APPEAR to be one and the same....i posted an article on it...very good article that kills the idea that noah was gilgamesh....the sumerians tried to steal noah's thunder apparently

ScaRZ said: Most people take these verses to be about Satan/Lucifer but they are about The King of Babylon who was Nimrod/Asshur. These verses fit like a glove when thinking back to the Tower of Babel. Nimrod is dreaming in his mind about the Tower stretching into the heavens where he sits on his thrown. The Stars of God are The Host of Heaven/Angels/Sons of God where Nimrod dreams of his thrown being above all of them. Nimrod sees himself becoming like The Most High.

I believe he was the Antichrist and he will be The Antichrist. He will be a copycat of Jesus being the first and the last.
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THIS makes sense to me and doesn't raise any objection.

The first thing I saw was "...a very large and famous city, the residence of the Babylonian kings, situated on both banks of the Euphrates. Cyrus had formerly captured it, but Darius Hystaspis threw down its gates and walls, and Xerxes destroyed the temple of Belis. At length the city was reduced to almost solitude, the population having been drawn off by the neighbouring Seleucia, built on the Tigris by Seleucus Nicanor.

And in Richard Shaw's last presentation of the Torah Codes, there is the name Cyrus right there in the Trump search.
Others have said the same.
If "Mystery Babylon" is a 'PATTERN' not necessarily a geography, then the door is very open as to who that final Antichrist is/will be, and time remaining, very short.
I can't ever manage to dismiss Islam as the bed from which the ac will arise.

   I want to know the thoughts of God. Everything else is just details.
     A Miracle is when God makes His Reality our Experience

interesting that you bring up trump/cyrus connection,dove....i read an article in one of the mags that judy sent me with some CD's and it was discussing DJT and if he would be a cyrus or would he be a nebuchanezzar....it was one of the better detailed articles on the cyrus era re-building and the future antichrist era rebuilding of the temple that i have ever read....i can't remember if it was by derek gilbert or tom horn and it was written right after the election.....

I think that article was in the "Skywatch" magazine Mike. Sometimes those are archived.
. This conversation is really adding up ya'll . I can feel it in my bones- like looking at an approaching storm and knowing it isn't just a typical storm but something much deeper .. (Like Linda Hamilton at the service station in terminator movie- years ago- as she was fleeing to the mountains ) .
I also had dreams last night about stampeding animals and then (2)dry bones being called to "life" more like being called to heaven.

being called to "life" more like being called to heaven.

YES!!!! PACKED! READY! LET'S GO!!! party

   I want to know the thoughts of God. Everything else is just details.
     A Miracle is when God makes His Reality our Experience

No shortage of oil for our lamps here Smile

(in my dream, there were no coffins only bones being called with a blueish hue to everything) Most of my other dreams are fragmented nothings and make no sense but these 2 woke me up ..and I remember them still.
I find it really interesting about Judas being entered into- and that being the only time that has happened by the evil one instead of just demons. - I want to study this more.

Elite Posts : 1954 Reputation : 62 Join date : 2012-01-05

Thanks guys for all the information......."This is what I love about laying things out."

I agree Michael......."Nimrod has so many names and titles he carries with him." Think about the 70 nations that spread out into the earth at the fall of Babel. All these nations and tongues of people that had a King (Nimrod) over them didn't just forget about him. King Nimrod was a god to these people.He now became a legend throughout the earth as they the people moved outward. Many nations of people with new languages now became new names and titles for this man. I'm not sure that Nimrod was just a man........"He very well could have been a Nephilim."

Here's something else that I find very interesting and fits so well. Takes some thinking,but let it sink in and you may see what I'm talking about.

Jesus Christ was the firstfruits of the First Resurrection; the Antichrist will be the firstfruits of the Second Resurrection.

FIRST 2 SECONDS: GASP ! goooogle

SECOND 2 SECONDS: GOT IT ! chuckle

   I want to know the thoughts of God. Everything else is just details.
     A Miracle is when God makes His Reality our Experience

it was a bit of shock until i got it,too....kinda' of a WTH couple of seconds.....

scarz if you will check strongs exhaustive concordance, you'll see one of the definitions for the word/words "mighty hunter" is "gibbori"....

Makes sense .... I can see it being that way ..

(I should have counted the 2 seconds of not breathing in there too Smile

)
I want to do "gibbori", and my thinking on that differs slightly (lol)
re: Nimrod.
But, I want to throw in another definition to see if it sheds any
additional light.
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I did pray protection while researching this. I DID NOT PUT IN THE 'PRAISE GOD' icons, BUT I'M LEAVING 'EM !!!!!
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And that's the good old Kosmokrators, found in Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Strong's #2888: kosmokrator (pronounced kos-mok-fat'-ore)

from 2889 and 2902; a world-ruler, an epithet of Satan:--ruler.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

́

kosmokratōr

1) lord of the world, prince of this age

1a) the devil and his demons

Part of Speech: noun masculine

Relation: from G2889 and G2902

Citing in TDNT: 3:913, 466

Usage:

This word is used 1 times:

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But once we had a decent amount of info on kosmokrators, from David F. and maybe Tom H. as well.

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http://gospelhall.org/bible/bible.php?search=kosmokrator&dict=vine&lang=greek

Ruler archon "a ruler, chief, prince," is translated "rulers," e.g., in praise GOD

.gospelhall.org/bible/bible.php?passage=1 Cor 2:6,8,]1 Cor 2:6,8,[/url] RV (AV, "princes"); "ruler," praise GOD

.gospelhall.org/bible/bible.php?passage=Rev 1:5]Rev 1:5[/url] (AV, "prince"). See MAGISTRATE, archon under PRINCE.
See also : archon

2. Ruler arche "a rule, sovereignty," is rendered "rulers" in praise GOD

.gospelhall.org/bible/bible.php?passage=Luke 12:11,]Luke 12:11,[/url] RV (AV, "magistrates"). See BEGINNING.
See also : arche

3. Ruler kosmokrator denotes "a ruler of this world" (contrast pantokrator, "almighty"). In Greek literature, in Orphic hymns, etc., and in rabbinic writings, it signifies a "ruler" of the whole world, a world lord. In the NT it is used in praise GOD

.gospelhall.org/bible/bible.php?passage=Eph 6:12,]Eph 6:12,[/url] "the world rulers (of this darkness)," RV, AV, "the rulers (of the darkness) of this world." The context ("not against flesh and blood") shows that not earthly potentates are indicated, but spirit powers, who, under the permissive will of God, and in consequence of human sin, exercise satanic and therefore antagonistic authority over the world in its present condition of spiritual darkness and alienation from God. The suggested rendering "the rulers of this dark world" is ambiguous and not phraseologically requisite. Cp. praise GOD

.gospelhall.org/bible/bible.php?passage=John 12:31;]John 12:31;[/url] praise GOD

.gospelhall.org/bible/bible.php?passage=John 14:30;]John 14:30;[/url] praise GOD

.gospelhall.org/bible/bible.php?passage=John 16:11;]John 16:11;[/url] praise GOD

.gospelhall.org/bible/bible.php?passage=2 Cor 4:4.]2 Cor 4:4.[/url]

Does this help clarify anything ???

(I'm repeatedly finding 'devil' to be synonymous with 'satan'. )

PS: DON'T HESITATE TO JUMP OVER THIS, I'M JUST STUDYING OUT LOUD. Wink

   I want to know the thoughts of God. Everything else is just details.
     A Miracle is when God makes His Reality our Experience

Elite Posts : 1954 Reputation : 62 Join date : 2012-01-05

This I believe reveals the Antichrist (The King of Babylon,Nimrod) that we don't get in the Masoretic text. Below is from the Septuagint and I believe this leads us all the way back to the seed of the serpent that is written about in Genesis 3.

(Esaias 14:20,Isaiah).........."As a garment defiled with blood shall not be pure, so neither shalt thou be pure; because thou hast destroyed my land, and hast slain my people: thou shalt not endure for ever—thou an evil seed. "

The Greek reading of the last part stands out even brighter in my opinion.........(ou me meines eis ton aiona kronon sperma poneron)........"In no way should you abide into the eon of time –seed of evil”

The serpent has a seed just as the woman has a seed......."Offspring". These two seeds will oppose one another. The serpent is not a snake but all of us here know that don't we?

The Antichrist is that evil seed that will oppose the good seed......."Our Lord Jesus Christ."

Genesis 3:15........"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

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michael371 wrote:: scarz if you will check strongs exhaustive concordance, you'll see one of the definitions for the word/words "mighty hunter" is "gibbori"....

You are correct Michael.

Thanks again for everyone taking part in this........"Great work."

Sorry to jump all over, but you know it's unavoidable. This past hour in my jumping and gathering I was reminded that the Jews will have to accept the AC as Messiah. The Rabbi's, the Orthodox know the criteria that must be met. One such being of the lineage of David. Born of a virgin. Is Bethlehem a criteria? I thought it had been ravaged. I can look up the criteria, but generally speaking we understand they will look to the words of the prophets.

And another question; of the 2 beasts of Revelation, where does Nimrod fit in?
And thank you for indulging me my lack of knowledge. thanks

I run into dilemmas that have always caused me to not settle this in my mind.

One more thing. Judas= (inhabited by) the son of perdition.
Apollyon=the son of perdition (?) the angel of the bottomless pit, the pit known as Abaddon.

   I want to know the thoughts of God. Everything else is just details.
     A Miracle is when God makes His Reality our Experience

Elite Posts : 1954 Reputation : 62 Join date : 2012-01-05

Dove wrote:: And another question; of the 2 beasts of Revelation, where does Nimrod fit in?

Beast from the Sea

Beast from the Earth

Beast from the Bottomless Pit

There are three beast mentioned in Revelation 13. I believe (Nimrod,The King of Babylon,The Antichrist) will be the beast that rises from the bottomless pit.

Jesus Christ as well as The Antichrist are and will be worshiped by their followers as dying and rising Gods. Another thing is Jesus Christ is The Good Shepherd while The Antichrist is The Idol Shepherd (a counterfeit or worthless shepherd). The second coming of Jesus Christ will occur as a door is opened in Heaven,while the second coming of The Antichrist will occur as The Bottomless Pit is opened.

reading a few pages at a time in constance cumbeys book, i find it interesting that every major system of belief has a hope for a returning "savior" and maitraya (according to his "handler" benjamin creme) fits the bill for all of them....the iman mahdi,krisna,buddha, etc, will all return as specified in the various cults,sects and movements.....i'm kinda' shocked in that the book lays out a plan that reads like the situation that we see going on in our nation right now....the goals of the new age globalists are out there in the open in washington dc and the west coast and is in the process of an attempt to set the groundwork to carry it out.....the socialist/nazi mindset is inset in the new age movement...it was no accident that this book was sitting out there in a place that it shouldn't have been....it was meant for me to read again

OH! ScaRZ said,
while the second coming of The Antichrist will occur as The Bottomless Pit is opened.

Satan's not in the pit! (which didn't add up) The AC is in the pit: "the beast that was and is not and yet is.' Correct?

Whew. I might get this yet! Thanks so much for everyone's patience.
This is hitting everybody right now too. I'm bumping into people working on refining their understanding in the darnedest places. (Not that there isn't still a ton of misunderstanding being put out.)

   I want to know the thoughts of God. Everything else is just details.
     A Miracle is when God makes His Reality our Experience

dove, something is going on, right now....all world leaders called emergency meetings...eu,trump,putin

Just saw PENCE called back to DC AF2 turned around!!! Gotta be HUGE

   I want to know the thoughts of God. Everything else is just details.
     A Miracle is when God makes His Reality our Experience

got a thread going. Russian sub 14 lost. Israeli attack on Syria-hit residences....

   I want to know the thoughts of God. Everything else is just details.
     A Miracle is when God makes His Reality our Experience

Missed this stuff happening this morning -been away from sources. Everyone be careful !!!!

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