The Bible,Ancient Text and The Spiritual World

The new title change looks intriguing and opens up a whole world of possibilities. I can’t wait to see it take off with some good discussions. For anyone new arriving at this thread, this can be considered as a continuation of the two links below. I pray God blesses this thread and anyone reading it with many new understandings, and may we have plenty of good deep discussions.
 
As promised this topic has earned a long overdue pin.
 
 
https://watchermeet-up.forumotion.com/t21236-will-we-love-the-darkness-more-than-the-light
 
https://watchermeet-up.forumotion.com/t23766-will-we-love-the-darkness-more-than-the-light-part-2

As far as the offspring of the Watchers and women,they were called the mighty men of old,warriors of renown. If they had females as well as males I've never seen it mentioned. But one thing for sure the bloodline had to find it's way into both women and men. Who can say that tinkering with the {genetics,DNA} was not in the mix also? 

If Watcher and mixing with women was all there was and it only produced a male offspring every time then was their offspring also sterile like mixing a horse with a jackass and producing a mule? 

No matter how it happened they finally corrupted the bloodline or the genetics of almost all mankind.

There were different types of Nephillim {Giants,offspring of the Watchers} that turned on each other killing, eating the flesh and drinking the blood.This is mentioned in the Book of Jubilees when it names some of them. 


Book of Jublilees Chapter 7

21] For owing to these three things came the flood upon the earth, namely, owing to the fornication wherein the Watchers against the law of their ordinances went a whoring after the daughters of men, and took themselves wives of all which they chose: and they made the beginning of uncleanness.


22] And they begat sons the Naphidim, and they were all unlike[Not alike; different], and they devoured one another:and the Giants slew the Naphil, and the Naphil slew the Eljo,and the Eljo mankind,and one man another.

23] And every one sold himself to work iniquity and to shed much blood, and the earth was filled with iniquity.


24] And after this they sinned against the beasts and birds, and all that moves and walks on the earth: and much blood was shed on the earth, and every imagination and desire of men imagined vanity and evil continually.


25] And the Lord destroyed everything from off the face of the earth; because of the wickedness of their deeds, and because of the blood which they had shed in the midst of the earth He destroyed everything.

This is something I posted back in the first thread that I'm going to bring in here. It's something I don't think many believers see as I do.

Genesis 2:17........"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

The verse above is misunderstood by a great deal of people. I believe it is very clear what "in the day" means. 

2 Peter 3:8........"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Outside of The Bible in The Book of Jubilees it lays things out very well. It's speaking of Adam who died at the age of 930.

Jubilees 4:30........"And he lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: 'On the day that ye eat thereof ye shall die.' For this reason he did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it."

Somewhere in (inside of) the time period of a day (1,000 years) Adam would die. Methuselah got closer to the 1,000 year point than any human has........"969".

Genesis 5:27........"And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died."

Nimrod and the Hybrid subjects in my opinion are very important. I see the New Age as nothing more than the same spirituality as it was in the days of Nimrod.

The spirit of antichrist is the driving force behind this push. The New Age religions have stolen many things from Gnosticism. Gnosticism has pieces spread out through many different religions.

 Like so many they speak correctly about some things,then when they have snared people's attention,they will insert diversion,dissension and teaching that is directly opposing The Word of God.

Always remember....."don't trust in everyone"......."watch them closely"......"don't let down your guard around them"......."let their on very words defeat him".

I just saw a tweet from someone who thinks what's going on, this battle, happening whenever, now?  In the past as well? is between satan and Lucifer.

I think we've established that none of us would think that.  And I really can't grasp how that Anon came to think that. 

I think they are the same entity.  I believe you and Mike think they are different entities.
But it made me wonder if they are separate, then what again do you all see as the relationship between these two?

I don't mean to task you with another laborious explanation.  Hopefully I'll remember with a short explanation, if you might have the time and inclination.  Thank you.

Dove wrote:

I just saw a tweet from someone who thinks what's going on, this battle, happening whenever, now?  In the past as well? is between satan and Lucifer.

I think we've established that none of us would think that.  And I really can't grasp how that Anon came to think that. 

I think they are the same entity.  I believe you and Mike think they are different entities.
But it made me wonder if they are separate, then what again do you all see as the relationship between these two?

I don't mean to task you with another laborious explanation.  Hopefully I'll remember with a short explanation, if you might have the time and inclination.  Thank you.

Great to see you Dove. I was beginning to wonder if anyone was going to post in the new thread. Anytime you have something to ask or post please do so.

Yes! Dove you are correct I no longer believe Lucifer and The Adversary (Satan) are the same entity.

I have thought over the last few years that The Adversary (The Dragon) as well his messengers (Angels) do not always see eye to eye with one another. Just think about this for a few minutes and maybe you will understand why I say this........"These guys are full of sin just as we humans are." Do we really think for one second that they are always of one mind and work together with sin bringing about jealousy and anger among them? Just like we humans the hunger for power is a cancer. 

As even a bigger picture of this I believe that 70 Sons of God were given rulership at Babel over the nations of the earth when God caused them to spread out into the earth. These Sons of God did not rule as they were suppose to,and to this very day they war with one another. Just look at The World today and it's greed,power and jealousy that's always in the mix.


When I have some more time I will lay out my thoughts why I've changed my mind about Lucifer and Satan (The Adversary) beginning the same entity.

ScaRZ wrote:

When I have some more time I will lay out my thoughts why I've changed my mind about Lucifer and Satan (The Adversary) beginning the same entity.

This below is one of the main reasons Lucifer can not be Satan. Satan is not a man at all,he isn't even part man to be called a man. You can't find anywhere in scripture where Satan is referred to as a human being. 

This whole lay out is about one being,it never changes from one to another.

Isaiah 14:12-16


How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!


For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:


I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.


Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.


They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;


Most people take these verses from Isaiah to be about Satan/Lucifer but they are about The King of Babylon who was Nimrod/Asshur. These verses fit like a glove when thinking back to the Tower of Babel. Nimrod is dreaming in his mind about the Tower stretching into the heavens where he sits on his throne. The Stars of God are The Host of Heaven/Angels/Sons of God where Nimrod dreams of his thrown being above all of them. Nimrod sees himself becoming like The Most High.

Lucifer is not Satan. Lucifer is just another name for Asshur/Nimrod/The King of Babylon the same man who built Babylon after the flood. He also founded the land of the Chaldeans as well as Assyria. This man carries many,many names from the peoples of all those nations that were scattered at Babel.

 He was worshipped as the Assyrians primary god. If we read Genesis10:8-11 he is named as both Nimrod and Asshur. Notice how the lay out of the verses are just a continuation........."Nimrod is Asshur".........He went out of the land and built Nineveh,Rehoboth and Caalah.

Genesis 10:8-11


And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.


He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.


And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.


Out of that land went forth Asshur, and builded Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah,

I appreciate the explanation, ScaRZ.  
The verses of satan that I always thought fit is that he frequented heaven as the accuser of the brethren night and day, but was CAST OUT, which makes me think of Lucifer. 
And that no man ascended to heaven before Jesus did. 

The words you ascribe to Lucifer-Nimrod, I've always attributed to satan. 
But I'll keep pondering it.  Thank you very much.  !
If more scripture comes to me, and if you add more, I'll be back.

Dove.....Here are some interesting things to consider.


Isaiah 14:12


Look how you have fallen from the sky, O shining one, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the ground, O conqueror of the nations!

The NET version of The Bible uses ‘sky’ for ‘heaven,’ with the following note: “Or ‘from heaven’ (the same Greek word means both ‘heaven’ and ‘sky’).” This does not mean as most think it is referring to The Heaven where God The Father is located.


A foot note in the New English Translation (NET) reads.........“What is the background for the imagery in vv. 12–15? This whole section (vv. 4b–21) is directed to the king of Babylon, who is clearly depicted as a human ruler. Other kings of the earth address him in vv. 9ff., he is called ‘the man’ in v. 16, and, according to vv. 19–20, he possesses a physical body.” 

Lucifer is not a proper name, but is the Latin word for ‘morning star’ or ‘day star.’ 

If the primary referent is to the Babylonian king (which the great majority of biblical scholars would affirm and as the evidence mentioned in the NET Bible footnote lists), then our understanding of the use of ‘morning star’ in 2 Peter 1:19 makes sense. The morning star literally referred to Venus, but in ancient times it was used metaphorically of earthly kings.

The note in the NET Bible at 2 Peter 1:19 is helpful along these lines:

The reference to the morning star constitutes a double entendre. First, the term was normally used to refer to Venus. But the author of course has a metaphorical meaning in mind, as is obvious from the place where the morning star is to rise— “in your hearts.” Most commentators see an allusion to Num 24:17 (“a star shall rise out of Jacob”) in Peter’s words. Early Christian exegesis saw in that passage a prophecy about Christ’s coming. Hence, in this verse Peter tells his audience to heed the OT scriptures which predict the return of Christ, then alludes to one of the passages that does this very thing, all the while running the theme of light on a parallel track. In addition, it may be significant that Peter’s choice of terms here is not the same as is found in the LXX. He has used a Hellenistic word that was sometimes used of emperors and deities, perhaps as a further polemic against the paganism of his day.

Lucifer is a LATIN word and was not in the Hebrew Masoretic text. "Heylel ben Shakur" was the term that the KJV translators could not rightly translate so they robbed "Lucifer from the Vulgate of Jerome which means "light bringer"....Heylel ben Shakur is "son of the morning star" in Latin. Its speaking of the god Apollo who is the son of the morning star Venus. (nimrod, semiramis and tammuz). I only care what the test says so is Lucifer satan?..Probably, but the framing of the text does not indicate that 100%...Hash it out, i have firewood to split today

Peter Goodgame did some great work on this subject. I will post it below and all credit is to be given to Peter Goodgame.
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Peter Goodgame wrote:

This brings us now to Isaiah 14 and to the enigmatic references to Lucifer and the King of Babylon. The context of this passage must not be misunderstood! It is spoken by Israel against the King of Babylon after the Day of the Lord has ended and after the people of God have gained victory through trust in the Messiah. I will break it up into three parts with my commentary added:


1.  The LORD will have compassion on Jacob; once again he will choose Israel and will settle them in their own land. Aliens will join them and unite with the house of Jacob.


 2.  Nations will take them and bring them to their own place. And the house of Israel will possess the nations as menservants and maidservants in the LORD's land. They will make captives of their captors and rule over their oppressors.


 3.  On the day the LORD gives you relief from suffering and turmoil and cruel bondage,


 4.  you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: “How the oppressor has come to an end! How his fury  has ended!


 5.  The LORD has broken the rod of the wicked, the scepter of the rulers,


 6.  which in anger struck down peoples with unceasing blows, and in fury subdued nations with relentless aggression.


 7.  All the lands are at rest and at peace; they break into singing.


 8.  Even the pine trees and the cedars of Lebanon exult over you and say, "Now that you have been laid low, no woodsman comes to cut us down."


 9.  The grave below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you-- all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones-- all those who were kings over the nations.


 10.  They will all respond, they will say to you, "You also have become weak, as we are; you have become like us."


 11.  All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.


 12.  How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!”


The name “Morning Star, Son of the Dawn” is Helel ben Shakar in Hebrew, or “Lucifer, Son of the Morning” in the KJV. If we view this person as the end-times Antichrist rather than Satan then it makes perfect sense. He is taunted by Israel after his final attempt to rule over the nations comes to an end. He is the “rod of the wicked,” the very same Asshur that carried a rod and beat Israel down in Isaiah 10. The King of Babylon is Asshur, also known as Nimrod, the one who originally built Babylon which was the site of the Tower of Babel. Also, notice in verses 16-17 below that he is not a fallen archangel (Satan), but merely a man. The text continues…


13.  You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.


 14.  I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."


 15.  But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit.


 16.  Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: "Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble,


 17.  the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?"


 18.  All the kings of the nations lie in state, each in his own tomb.


 19.  But you are cast out of your tomb like a rejected branch; you are covered with the slain, with those pierced by the sword, those who descend to the stones of the pit. Like a corpse trampled underfoot,


 20.  As a garment defiled with blood shall not be pure, so neither shalt thou be pure; because thou hast destroyed my land, and hast slain my people: thou shalt not endure forever, —thou an evil seed. LXX


 21.  Prepare a place to slaughter his sons for the sins of their forefathers; they are not to rise to inherit the land and cover the earth with their cities.


 22.  "I will rise up against them," declares the LORD Almighty. "I will cut off from Babylon her name and survivors, her offspring and descendants," declares the LORD.


 23.  "I will turn her into a place for owls and into swampland; I will sweep her with the broom of destruction," declares the LORD Almighty.


Modern translations conceal the Hebrew reference to the “evil seed” whereas the LXX brings it right out. It is sperma poneron (singular) in Greek, better translated as, “Thou shalt not endure forever – evil seed.” The allusions to Genesis 3:15 are obvious. The end-times King of Babylon is the “evil seed,” the Antichrist that will rise again in the end-times.

The concluding sentences of this great prophetic passage of Isaiah bring us back to where we started in Isaiah chapter 9 and the outstretched hand of the Lord. For some reason some Bibles act as if Isaiah 14:24-27 is meant to be separated from the previous section on the King of Babylon, but that is clearly not the case. This is the final word on what the Lord has been saying since he accused Israel of having a heart desiring to rebuild the Tower of Babel. It began with the Lord saying four times, “Yet for all this, his anger is not turned away, his hand is still upraised.” And here is where it ends:


24.  The LORD Almighty has sworn, "Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will stand.


 25.  I will crush Asshur in my land; on my mountains I will trample him down. His yoke will be taken from my people, and his burden removed from their shoulders."


 26.  This is the plan determined for the whole world; this is the hand stretched out over all nations.


 27.  For the LORD Almighty has purposed, and who can thwart him? His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?



Asshur is Lucifer, the King of Babylon. He is the Antichrist, the evil seed of the Serpent -- the Son of Satan. He will be destroyed by the Messiah by the very breath that comes from His lips when He returns.

Saint Victorinus wrote the very first line-by-line commentary on the book of Revelation. He lived in the second half of the third century in Slovenia and died as a martyr. Here is what he wrote about Asshur, quoting from Micah 5:5-6, which is another text that states that the Messiah will deliver Israel from Asshur in the end-times:

For we also read in the Gospel that the prayers of the Church are sent from heaven by an angel, and they are taken up by a holy angel against the outpouring of wrath and the darkness of the kingdom of Antichrist. For he says: Pray that you might not fall into temptation. For there will be great suffering, such as has not been from the beginning of the world; and except the Lord shortens those days, there would not be any flesh saved upon the earth. Therefore, He will send these seven great Archangels for the piercing of the kingdom of Antichrist. For as He also says in the Gospel: Then the Son of Man will send His messengers, and they will gather His chosen ones from the four winds, from the end of heaven to its (other) end. And he says before: then there will be peace in the earth, when seven shepherds will arise in it, and eight attacks (lit. 'bites') of men, and they will encircle Assur, that is, Antichrist, in the ditch of Nebroth [Nimrod]: in the damnation of the devil.

Conclusion

Lucifer is Asshur, the King of Babylon. He is the Antichrist, not Satan. The Queen of Babylon is his unholy "bride." Parallel end time judgments on the King and Queen of Babylon are given in Isaiah 14 and Revelation 18. To properly understand Isaiah 14 one must understand Genesis 10-11 and the end times role of Nimrod as the first and the last of Satan's seven kings (with the first also appearing at the end as the "eighth").

There is a huge difference between that of a very long life span and that of eternal life. Only those in Jesus Christ possess the gift of inherent eternal life. I find nowhere in scripture that The Adversary has anything more than just a long lifeline. The Adversary does not possess an eternal life......"The Adversary has never tasted of The Tree of Life." The Adversary is not and never has been in Jesus Christ. They are enemies......."They are at war."

There is no doubt in my mind that The Adversary as well as all Sons of God,Watchers,Angels and mankind were created to one day possess the gift of inherent eternal life. The Adversary had chosen long ago a different tree and then came along mankind that chose that same tree. 

Down the road it will be eternal for (All).........."But which eternal?".......(Eternal Life or Eternal Death)

In Psalm 82 we can see how God let the Sons of God rule over the seventy nations of the world. This again refers to a Heavenly Divine Counsel as God is seen standing among the mighty congregation of Sons of God and judging among them. God gave them the authority to be rulers or princes over the nations and he will be the one to take the nations from the Sons of God. These seventy Sons of God as we read will also die as a man.


Psalm 82:1-8


God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.


How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.[Selah means we should pause and reflect on these words.]


Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.


Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.


They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.


I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.


But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.


Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.



Great verses that open up the big picture in understanding.


Isaiah 28:9-10


Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.


For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

I can't make my mind up about the timing of Psalm 82. One thought is the nations were divided before either Babylon or Abraham came on the scene so there were no Babylonians or Hebrews around at that time for God to take his portion from - YET.

The other thought is it could also be smack in-between the Babylonian tower thing and people of like minds and language forming the nations, and the later formation of the Hebrews via Abraham.

The other OTHER thought is Psalm 82 taking place after Abraham was called out, The Lord walked between the sacrifice like a burning lamp (with Abe knocked out) and the covenant was sealed.


Any insight would be welcome if someone wants to tackle this. I've ruminated on this more than once. Still haven't reached a firm conclusion though I lean towards the after the Abraham covenant view.

My view is much like that of Michael Heiser.

These gods are being judged for their corrupt administration of the nations of the earth having been granted that authority at the division of the nations at Babel according to Deut 32:8-9 (LXX,DSS)

8 When the Most High divided the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God. 9 And his people Jacob became the portion of the Lord, Israel was the line of his inheritance.


English Standard Version (ESV)

Deut 32:8-9

When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders  of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God. 

But the LORD's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.




The building of the city and the Tower of Babel is where God and the sons of God [Angels,Watchers] descend from heaven to earth and scatter the people. Nimrod the King of the world and who I believe to be a first type of Antichrist,along with the people were attempting to make a name for [themselves].

Jasher 9:31 And they built the tower and the city, and they did this thing daily until many days and years were elapsed. And God said to the [seventy angels] who stood foremost before him , to those who were near to him, saying, [Come let us descend] and confuse their tongues, that one man shall not understand the language of his neighbor,’ and they did so unto them.



I now will give my thoughts on the dividing of the nations. These are only what I believe and nothing more.


I believe God put the seventy Sons of God [Angels,Watchers] in charge and made them princes over the seventy nations of Man. For every Angel[Son of God] he was given one of the nations to rule. I also believe they were either of the Fallen Angels or they fell after they began to rule over each nation. God allowed the Sons of God to achieve a ruler ship over Man which led them being worshiped as gods. 

God chose the Hebrews later in time as his own nation, they were not of the seventy,but were all the gentile nations of the world. God gave all seventy nations to the seventy Sons of God[Angels,Watchers] but would keep the Hebrews for himself. They were to be his nation, his people.

Det 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, [even] all the host of heaven [Heavenly creations,Angels,Sons of God] shouldest be driven to WORSHIP THEM, and SERVE THEM, which the LORD thy God hath [DIVIDED] unto [ALL NATIONS] under the whole heaven....... [See how God divided all the other nations but kept the Hebrews as his nation.] He is warning them[the Hebrews] not to start worshiping the other gods.


Det 4:20 But the LORD hath taken you, and brought you forth OUT of the iron furnace, [even] out of Egypt, to be [UNTO HIM A PEOPLE] of inheritance, as [ye are] this day.

The world was divided up according to the number of Sons of God that descended with God. Seventy was the number of members within this particular angelic order, this is why the Table of Nations of Genesis 10 lists exactly seventy descendent's of Shem, Ham, and Japheth, who made up the nations that were separated on the earth after the flood of Noah.

If you remember the gentile nations had to later be added into the fold. They were left out and didn't know the one true God. 

I believe there is a divine counsel of God and the Sons of God [Angels]. If you read in Job you will see it referred to and how Satan came in among them. You must remember Satan was never referred to as Satan until after his falling, but he yet was there with God and the other Sons of God. As you can see Satan was already doing his will,or what God would permit him to do on the earth.

Job 1:6-7


Now there was a day when the [sons of God] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 


And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 

I believe this same heavenly divine counsel can be seen in Chapter 1:26 of Genesis when God says,"Let us make man in [our] image, after [our] likeness." Then later in Genesis 3:22 God says,"Behold, the man is become as one of [us], to know good and evil." I don't believe this only refers to the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, but is referring to a divine counsel of the Sons of God.

You can see the Sons of God had free will,because they knew [good and evil]. We know they had to have free will or no Son of God[Angel,Watcher] would've ever fell as they did before the flood and later with their rulership over the divided seventy nations.

Session 1 of our Supernatural Seminar from Dr. Michael Heiser, Author of Supernatural: What the Bible Teaches About the Unseen World - and Why It Matters.



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Supernatural Seminar | Dr. Michael Heiser // Session 2



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Supernatural Seminar | Dr. Michael Heiser // Session 3



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Supernatural Seminar | Dr. Michael Heiser // Session 4

This will be a must watch today.

Dove wrote:

This will be a must watch today.

I've been watching them today and most material of his I'm already very familiar with but man it got my mental jucies flowing again. We all need to be jump started every now and then.

Dove wrote:

This will be a must watch today.

These will be a must watch over the next couple of days. Almost five hours for the entire four sessions and I'm gonna enjoy every single minute. Below is the time break down in chronological order. Just browsing part one I see slides, lots and lot of slides.

1)  52 min
2)  55 min
3)  80 min
4)  82 min

Michael Heiser brought up again that at the Genesis fall of The Adversary he never drew one third of the angels (Stars of Heaven) to follow him at that point in time. Michael points to this event not taking place until around the time of the birth of Jesus Christ in Revelation 12.

This certainly brings up a whole different mindset of events and how they are understood. I really never thought about this until I heard him speak on this subject some time back. Very interesting and something I must study on much deeper.

I love his view on why is the world so wicked and that it wasn't just what happened in Genesis 3. It wasn't just one event but was three events.

1.....The Fall (Genesis 3)

2.....Sons of God (Genesis 6:1-4)

3.....Babel (Deut 32:8-9, cp Psalm 82)


I've watched three of the sessions and hope to watch the fourth today.

Great teaching throughout all four sessions. Michael Heiser makes it easy to listen and understand.

This life is a great wilderness lacking understanding the many mysteries of the ages. A vast wilderness of doubts,questions,trials and tribulations that mold us into the souls we are, as well as who we will become. Into this great wilderness we all came and one day through the giant maze of life a path will finally lead us to the promise land of understanding.

We all must seek to find. Without questions whether inward or outward how can we receive answers?
My hope is this thread will cover many areas of past,present and beyond as we weave our way through the great wilderness. The earth our home as well as the universe and realms not seen by human eyes hold all the answers.

It takes time in search of truth and I wonder how many of us humans really hunger for something outside of the box we live in. It's the same no matter how far we look back throughout history. We humans suffer from a lack of deep interest and desire quick satisfaction.

Satan is called “the prince of the power of the air” in Ephesians 2. What do you think that means exactly?

Michael S. Heiser: On one hand, “air” is part of the vocabulary for the spiritual world—the world which humans do not inhabit, but which divine beings do inhabit. But “air” was also a descriptor for the heavens below the firmament in Israelite cosmology—still distinguishable from God’s abode, which was above the firmament (Isa 40:22; Job 22:13; cp. Gen 1:7 to Psa 29:10). The “air” metaphor allowed people to think of the spiritual world in terms of (a) not being the realm of humans, and (b) still beneath the presence of God, or the place where God lives.

That meant Satan wasn’t in God’s presence or in control of God’s domain. Angels could be sent into the world to assist humans and would of course be opposed by those spiritual beings in control of earth’s “air space” so to speak. Ultimately, the spiritual world has no measurable parameters, or latitude and longitude (the celestial sphere is no help locating it!). Human writers have to use the language of “place” to describe something place-less (in terms of what we, as embodied beings, can understand). For that reason, it isn’t always a neat picture.

Here's something a friend of mine wrote that is about some of his experiences with ET. We talked on many of his interactions with those he called ET. He is an experiencer that these interactions have been going on in his life from a very young age as a child. The question of how the population on earth of christian faith might change or react to a disclosure of ET to mankind is why I chose to post his thoughts.

*************

If "they" appear in the sky regardless, I guess Christianity and possibly the other two attached religions are immediately out of gas. It will quickly be reguarded the "fool's" belief system.


As soon as the ET provide a sample of blood the whole idea of being straight forward spirits or demons will disintegrate among a believing populace. I am pretty sure confusion will reign far and wide as large masses of people attempt to re-analyze what this means in terms of faith.


Having been proven they are flesh and blood...prophecy will immediately [give the likely appearance of being] derailed and become invalid. Null and Void. What was once promised never "manifested" or "happened".


Perhaps there will now be enough room to curtail all former beliefs systems on Earth and form a new one. All former believers will probably be shunned as fools in foolish beliefs. Priests, Rabbi etc, will come on TV and denounce their former belief or risk being seen as fools or frauds.


The policies that support societal freedom of belief will almost assuredly disintegrate. People will, I imagine, be ashamed as others laugh and jeer at "the few" whom still continue their prayer and beliefs. The laws and boundaries of freedom of belief will be re-evaluated in front of the ET. I imagine they will be watching with silent bemusement (No doubt in my mind).


The question then becomes is "God" wrong about all the rest? Who is "God"? Does he come in a space ship that I can see with my eyes?


Like a cracked glass that has been shattered, the ET...I imagine, will take the opportunity to assert with world leaders that the perpetuation of "belief" is still good, but it must be remodeled to new recommendations. Otherwise a society may no longer object to fear of immoral behavior.


One of the biggest questions of Mankind will have probably have been answered definitively. The role of death, life, mortality, morality and ethics on Earth will likely be redefined. No doubt the ET will have a front row seat to injecting those new values.


Mankind will probably look over the new values and see that it is flexible enough for their liking and agree that these are the new rules.


People whom still hold to the old rules will very surely be mocked and their protests make them the outcasts of mankind.


Some hybrids I was told were shipped off to retention areas where they underwent education and were maintained as a populace allegedly. I was told a portion of the facilities were subterranean and others were off world.

Sodom and Gomorrah – 1962 - Full Movie
 
This thread just seems like the right place for this.
 
I remember seeing this movie in the theater when it came out. I haven’t seen it since, though I do have the soundtrack on RTR tape. Great dramatic music. This movie should be shown on TV. Fat chance of that ever happening in this day and age.
 
Length: 2 hours 23 minutes
Video Quality: Standard Definition
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rJTbb0rFCw

Who are The Two Witnesses written about in Revelation 11?

Revelation 11:3 ........"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

Some believe the 1,260 days are at the end of the great tribulation and others believe it is during the first three and one half years of the tribulation period.

Through the years I've thought about this question and have read several opinions on this subject. I would say most would say they are Elijah and Enoch or Elijah and Moses.

I remember many years ago that the Worldwide Church of God at that time taught that Herbert Armstrong and his brother (I can't remember his name) were to be these two witnesses. Of coarse I never gave that a second thought.

Is it possible that they are not who most believe they are? Could it be that most of us have missed some great clues to who they are within the pages of The Bible? 

This is a study I've been on lately and when I have some time I will lay out some very interesting verses from The Bible that have really gotten my interest. It really blew me away when I began to think hard about the whole idea.

1st thought is Jesus said, John the Baptist (can serve as) Elijah, if they (understood and) believed.

I think Elijah is uniformly accepted by Christians and Jews.  

I come to: Elijah and Moses at the Mount of Transfiguration.
ie: The Law and the Prophets fulfilled in Yeshua.  "Listen to Him".  One more time they give the message.
Also look at what 'powers' they have and see if it correlates.
We know Elijah called down fire.

ScaRZ wrote:

Who are The Two Witnesses written about in Revelation 11?

Revelation 11:3 ........"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

I finally got some time to lay out a very interesting take on the two witnesses. Here below are some of the key points in my thinking on this subject.

*****************

Revelation 11:4........These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.


Zechariah 4:11........Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?


12 - And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?


13 - And he answered me and said, Know you not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.


14 - Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


In Revelation 11:4 we have these two witnesses identified as the two olive trees. In Zechariah 4:11 we get a clue about these two olive trees. Also we have the statement from Zechariah 4:14 that these are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.  

Think about the Menorah, the candle stand with 7 candles.  The highest candle in the middle represents Jesus Christ.  The two candles on either side of the center candle represent these two witnesses.  

In 1 Kings 6 Solomon overlaid the house within with pure gold: and he made a partition by the chains of gold before the oracle; and he overlaid it with gold.

22 - And the whole house he overlaid with gold, until he had finished all the house: also the whole altar that was by the oracle he overlaid with gold.


23 - And within the oracle he made two Cherubims of olive tree, each ten cubits high.


Here we have the two Cherubims guarding The Arc of the Covenant made from olive trees. In my opinion this is a very good clue.


I'm not writing all this in stone but there are some very good clues in scripture that I believe these two witnesses could be Gabriel and Michael. In The Bible the only two Angels given a name are Gabriel and Michael. If this is true then think about it, they would certainly be the ones to have always stood in place, and have been witnesses after their creation to all events. 


Luke 1:19 - And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto you, and to show you these glad tidings.

Remember back to this statement back in Zechariah 4:14 that these are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth. As well as Revelation 11:4 where it says........"that stand before the Lord of the earth."

The angel, Gabriel is identified in Luke 1:19.  We know that Gabriel was there at or near the birth of both John the Baptist and Jesus Christ.  If two witnesses were needed, one has to assume that Michael was also present to provide for two witnesses, as required. 

John 20:11 – But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,

John 20:12 tells us there were two angels in the tomb when Mary entered it. 

12 - And saw two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus Christ had lain.

The two angels inside the tomb were two witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Could it be that these are the same two angels represented on the Ark of the covenant and by King Solomon’s depiction?  Are they in fact the two olive trees?


Genesis 19:1 - And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

I wonder if these two angels that came to Sodom are also Gabriel and Michael. They went on to provide a witness to the sins committed by those of Sodom and Gomorrah, and to render a judgement according to what they witnessed.  

Acts 1:9-10


And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.


And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Acts 1:9-10 picture Jesus Christ ascending into heaven before many witnesses. Are these two men in white apparel that stood by them both Gabriel and Michael witnessing Jesus Christ ascending to heaven?  Rev. 11 has these two witnesses ascending in similar manner, but their ascension will be witnesses by the people who dwell on the earth. 


Revelation 11:11-12


And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.


And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


Daniel 12:1........And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

If this verse in Daniel 12:1 is a reference to Michael standing up from the dead (Rev. 11), it would appear to identify the second witness ..... Gabriel and now, Michael. "Michael shall stand up”.  Could this be speaking of the act of the two witnesses standing up from the dead before being taken into heaven? 


I have wondered for a long time if all both mankind and angel must all have a form of death or change and rebirth for the coming eternal life. I have thought about this for years that the stain of sin which had entered into creation would need a complete rebirth to totally white wash the stain away. Everything in creation has been effected in some form by the stain of sin. 

If this be the case then these two witnesses if they are Gabriel and Michael would be the first amongst the angelic realm to be judged and rewarded........."An act that for the rest of the angelic realm will not occur until after the judgement of man."

The only way was for even The Lord to put on flesh of man and die. Just thinking about that and it blows my mind that even The Lord had to die for the stain of sin.

These present heavens and earth are going to pass away.  The new heavens and new earth are coming. Out with the old,in with the new.  All memories of the past heavens and earth will fade from our minds. 

This is something I don't think many believers really believe at all. They may believe the creation of  new heavens and a new earth, but they don't believe all memories of the past will fade from their minds. 

Isaiah 65:17.........."For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."

NBC News Reports: "Police in Jackson, Mississippi, want access to live home security video, alarming privacy advocates. Civil liberties advocates warn that a new surveillance tool will put people’s everyday household activities under potential scrutiny by police." Click here to read article.





With big tech demonstrating their ability to censor and silence messaging at will. This becomes an extremely powerful tool in sidelining any potential distribution of critical information. The days of whistle-blowers or sharing controversial information are coming to an end. The sharing of Ring video is just a tracker piece they already have the AI for facial, and vehicle recognition. As for posting anonymously this died years ago, with metadata fingerprints of individual online activity.

I haven't been around in awhile because I really don't see any interest as of now in this thread. I thought after the election things would pick up some....."But it hasn't." It appears the forum isn't interested in much more than the same old politics.

I just don't get anything much out of it. I enjoy the layouts and discussions on The Bible and Biblical Prophecy. 

If I get some free time and feel I have something of interest I will drop in and post it.

ScaRZ wrote:

I love his view on why is the world so wicked and that it wasn't just what happened in Genesis 3. It wasn't just one event but was three events.

1.....The Fall (Genesis 3)

2.....Sons of God (Genesis 6:1-4)

3.....Babel (Deut 32:8-9, cp Psalm 82)

The deeper narrative is mind boggling.... so many things happening at once.

All three are attacks that result in falls. 
All three God directly intervenes to save us(preserves our saving).
Final attack and saving incoming! 

"Already, but not yet"  We have been saved, we are being saved, we will be saved forever!
 They have been judged, they are being judged, they will be judged finally!

Something that happens in time-past-present-future

Will the new heave and earth be without time so that we can/do not fall to be saved forever or remember the former.

David Burnett and DR Hiser   Death of the gods- incredible things to ponder

Good to see you drop in Squib. You brought up some interesting thoughts.

The one thing that always comes to my mind is that in eternity......."Why would there be any need at all for Time?"

The clock is not ticking away anything in an eternal setting. But now as we live the clock is always ticking away at every fiber of this life and also this creation.

Yep, politics seem to be the main focus now. I did have hope that things might turn around and the evil would be exposed, but I ought to have known better. Evil is about to flourish
 Time:
the system of those sequential relations that any event has to any other, as past, present, or future; indefinite and continuous duration regarded as that in which events succeed one another.
duration regarded as belonging to the present life as distinct from the life to come or from eternity; finite duration.


We calculate time by movement of objects, but how do our bodies respond to that measure of time and why? Why do our bodies wear according to that time that is measured by the movement of objects? You can get all kinds of medical and scientific babble but there is a pivotal point that defines both aging and time and its not found in the accepted scientific or medical books and journals. Its in Genesis,"ye shall surely die".

 People generally speak of eternity as "forever" but thats only in one direction. Eternity is in both directions, both future and past. Or is it? The definition most befitting eternity is the absence of time, at least in my very unlearned eyes. For time to stop, the movement of the planets would stop, as would the movement of protons and electrons in objects as well as human and animal cells.
 This is a very complicated subject and since we are finite creatures, we only guess at the infinite. The new "heaven and earth"? Will there be time? Is it a re-creation that will incorporate time? Or is it a residence for the resurrected saints? I don't have an answer, but I wonder if it is actually a re-creation like the period between Genesis 1: and 1:2. I am not qualified to try to answer my own meandering around, but I just wonder if I am the only one that finds the mysteries of scripture and tries to divide it with hard questions? I confuse myself a lot of times.
 
After fighting through some things in my life concerning the death of my brother, I think I am ready to try to be back to normal living. I'm still struggling with some things. Scarz, I was going to PM you but I look forward to going back to our off the wall deliberations concerning stuff nobody will touch. Like xmass? Why does the world system love xmass but hate Christ. Why is it celebrated on the pagan high holy day? Why is it called "Christ's Mass" to supposedly celebrate the birth of Jesus, but it was incorporated by the Vatican and in latin "Christs Mass" actually means 'Christ's DEATH!"....Just because you call something "Christian" does not make it so. Same with "ishatar" better known as EASTER. So, Bruce ole boy, lets create a shitstorm, shall we?

I'm ready anytime you are Michael. I've been waiting for the right time to stir the pot.

michael371 wrote:

  I confuse myself a lot of times.

Me too brother! 

Sorry about my ramble fit.

Politics : As nauseating as it can be, it will be prophetic at some point. We are watchers. We must watch, warn, wade through the shit and interpret for those who have not the power to do so. Some of us have taller waders and have a higher tolerance for the bs. I need to take breaks from it to recharge but I know I have a duty to watch. I appreciate the tall wader folks.

Time: But as it is written: “Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him.”

I think from our time/space vantage point we cannot comprehend what is there for us. We can't imagine not sinning or not wanting.....

Good read about xmass
http://hope-of-israel.org/cmas1.htm

Michael Heiser - Who are the 144,000?





Interesting thoughts by Michael Heiser on the 144,000.

Armageddon is a battle I believe most people have heard of but few get the full picture. Most see it as man verse man in some great battle that brings on the end of the world.

This indeed will be a GREAT war, but this war will be a battle of Satan's forces [Angels,demons,Fallen Watchers,man,Hybrids and the Antichrist] fighting Christ and his heavenly armies at his coming. 

Armageddon must be fought in order to defeat Satan,take back the earth from him and his forces before Christ can set up his Kingdom on earth......"Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth as [it is] in heaven".



Jeremiah 10:11


“Tell them this: ‘These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth, will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.’ ”



This battle will not be stopped, it will be fought. What is to be will be and everything must be fulfilled to the letter. I hear people all the time say we can stop it, but that only comes from the hearts and minds of fleshly man.

This is a battle that has NOTHING to do with man fighting man,or nation fighting nation. This is a battle of that GREAT DAY OF GOD ALMIGHTY. 

The battle will be Satan and his armies verse God and his heavenly armies.


Rev 16:13-16


And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 


For they are spirits of demons, performing SIGNS, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to GATHER them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 


"Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." 


And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.




Rev 19:19


And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


Isaiah 24:21


And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.


The world unites as one, and God will bring his fury DOWN on them. I believe God is the ultimate source that makes sure they are there in the valley......THIS IS HIS DAY.


Joel 3:14


Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.


Isaiah 13:6


Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

No, it can't be stopped, but it can be delayed, if I read the scripture correctly.  Revelation 10:5-6:And swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there should be delay no longer”


 Some translate it to mean that "there should be no more time" which could throw out a completely different meaning, but if God foreordained it to be at a certain time, then that is when it will happen. Even Christ didn't know when it will happen, but the scripture passage does indicate there has been delays before the angel declares.


You mention hybrids and I am so glad. I think that you know that I am convinced that there are hybrids walking the earth. I believe those to be people who have different dna than we do and provide the bodies for the wandering spirits that are mentioned in Enoch. Most people call them "demons" and just as Nimrod became a Gibbori( mighty hunter) these people have done something similar. My guess and its only a guess, is that they are the mighty men of the earth, the rulers both political and financial, the aristocrates of this world. I think we (not me) are being conditioned with this covid-19 vaccine. People will accept whatever the mark happens to be due to the false prophet "causing" them to take. It won't be forced but will be a situation where people are put in a position to accept it to survive or to refuse and die. There are some things worse than death. If you notice, there are already protocols being put in place concerning various activities that you cannot take part in unless you have had the vaccine. Soon, either with the mutation of this virus or the next one that comes along, the vaccine will become mandatory in order to buy or sell. If your dna is changed from that of a human made in the image of God to something that is not, and that change is done willingly, can you still be saved? I don't see it. A true child of the living God, will not accept this and will be willing to die before signing on to the allegiance with Satan. I don't think that we are many years away from this.


 Could Armageddon be disguised as an "alien attack?" That is entirely possible because you do hear a lot about alien life in "mainstream" (fake news) media now, as to being shunned and discarded in the past. I do know that a period of great deception will take place before the events. Kinda' like what we are seeing now?


 Armageddon will have to involve humans or at least humanoid life forms due to the blood running so deep in the valley, up to the bridles of horses. Now, will real horses be there or do they represent something else?

I agree with you Michael that Armageddon can be delayed for a time. However long it takes is in The Father's hands. I think it all comes down to how many more can and will be saved before the final push begins.

Remember man has been blinded and they now believe a LIE. The WORLD will not know they are fighting the armies of God Almighty. The lie of all lies will be that man believes that they are about to be invaded by someone or something else from space.

I believe it is very possible that the Antichrist,The Adversary and the False Prophet will preach to mankind that we are about to be attacked by an ALIEN INVASION. This could be what moves ALL the armies of the world into the valley of decision[Megiddo,Armageddon]. 

People love the signs and wonders. This will make it much easier for people to be deceived and believe a lie.

michael371 wrote:

can you still be saved? I don't see it. A true child of the living God, will not accept this and will be willing to die before signing on to the allegiance with Satan. I don't think that we are many years away from this.

This is a subject that I brought up several times on another forum years ago and boy did it piss a lot of members off. This was a UFO Forum so you can imagine why some could not stand my views on The Hybrid subject. Most of the members were either not believers in God or they were more on the new age page of thinking.

The Bible is very clear on........."Everything after it's ON KIND" 

We humans are not to mix with anything or anyone that is not man. 

Why do you think God came down so hard on The Sons of God that came into this realm and mixed with mankind?...........They even got Enoch to speak for them and try and get them back in the good graces with God but it did no good.

They placed a curse upon themselves as well as all their Hybrid offspring for ever and ever........."Eternity."

As I told them on that UFO Forum years ago........"And yes some claimed to be a hybrid on that forum."................I see nowhere in scripture that Hybrids can be saved.

Scarz, Charles Lawson just laid it out for the world to see....He,with no uncertain terms, just explained in his Sunday sermon that Nimrod was the the 1st ANTI-CHRIST and he finished his sermon with the Tower,Babylon and the US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!He gets it completely and said > exactly < What we have discussed!!!!!!! I just would have loved for more of his thoughts because he really, for the first time, pegged it. I have heard him speak in broader terms and I suspected that he knew, but now I KNOW that he gets it!

Mike, I'm looking forward to hearing that one when he gets it uploaded on U-tube. I just did a search and it ain't ready yet. I checked Lawson's web page and it looks like he did a couple of sermons today - so - what one am I looking for.

Have a great day y'all.